CM arty modeling

[Suhiir]

TOS-1 = ouch !

[Wdll]

You fired once and that's it?

Hell, I bet that 1 out of who knows how many, it might not even destroy any tank...that won't mean that CM can't destroy.

I am talking about hundreds of battles of usage of CM artillery. Not a single shot and quit the game.
Try 10 times with same conditions, see what happens each time.

[Imp]

That was 4 shots of 1 shot each since you were complaining what a single round did, normally of course you fire more than 1 shot. I cannot be bothered to test further yes next time might get 4 kills & 2 immobile results. Its still not the devastating weapon you are making it out to be after all thats 4 shots now I will take 4 with a modern MBT for 3 kills. Possibly try adjusting the Pen level to 40 or so for even less effect vs units on outer circle if you think its to effective.
Banning though changes the entire nature of the battle in my opinon as if CM arty is possible it changes tactics by causing dispersal both in attack & deffence making doing both far more difficult. After all its useless if it misses so if you think your force is spotted dont do the obvious, bit trickier vs planes mind & a general "rule" anyway.
You have to judge when its safe to group up or worth the risk & if he guessed right what your up to it hurts. With CM arty only I end up plotting far more than firing as decide target is not worthwhile as have been second guessed.
When we played you restricted it to onboard only no reloads something like 50 CM rounds only, this made it easy as know what you have once fired. So use tactics to combat & once it fires I know elsewhere I can bunch up for a turn hence you only hit one or 2 tanks a game. My CM then fired taking out most of your CM regulary letting me operate normally while you had the threat of my remaining shells hanging over your force.
Hardly ever use it on armour unless dug in or offer up a target thats just to good to ignore as hitting fast targets as in vehicles is tricky vs a human, a mortar will prep an armored force & its escort for attack nearly as well. But the mortar will not do the job effectivly on targets like SAMS Arty or that ATGM that is stalling the attack.
Not being able to deal with these fast leaves your armour air vulnerable to attack & hence loses.

[Wdll]

OK, first of all, you are not talking to some stupid f***. Yes under normal operation you will fire more than one shell, but that means ****, if one shot can do the damage it can.
If you cannot be bothered to do the test, then it is not a test and I cannot be bothered to read the rest of your post.
but I will because I am very bored.

This is not about tactics, so stop kissing the *** of certain people. It doesn't even affect me directly since as I have mentioned I have stopped using CM artillery, not because I had an issue with it, but because most of my opponents did and I can't be bothered to remember different rules for different opponents.
As I said, tactics mean nothing if the problem is what it is. The fact that you can get away from it if you move etc etc, means NOTHING if one system is overpowering. It's irrelevant.

[Imp]

This thread was started to see if anyone had a better way of modeling its effects. You think its to powerfull I suggested a way to try & reduce its effects setting Pen to 40 as MAY reduce effects of outer blast circle if assume half or less strength while having little effect on target hex, failing that as a thought you could try reducing warhead size by 1 or 2 to reduce area of effect for gun launched shells but the area may be an atributte of CM arty
Also suggested like any weapon system tactics can negate it to an extent probably more so with arty as have to predict where you will be & commit with no chance to change your mind mid turn.
You moan about how it works & it seems to bother you even if indirectly so why not see if you can do better as you say you are bored.
As its weapon data you will need to use Mobhack > weapons tab then change Pen & or warhead save & test, send fix to your opponents or post as an alternative for people to try it & comment.
Appologise in advance if suggesting this offends its not meant to this is how I would go about fixing it if I thought it was to powerfull. Might even agree with you to an extent that howitzer launched stuff might be slightly to powerfull but not to an extent I can be bothered to try & research it.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Imp

This thread was started to see if anyone had a better way of modeling its effects. You think its to powerfull I suggested a way to try & reduce its effects setting Pen to 40 as MAY reduce effects of outer blast circle if assume half or less strength while having little effect on target hex, failing that as a thought you could try reducing warhead size by 1 or 2 to reduce area of effect for gun launched shells but the area may be an atributte of CM arty.

Assuming I understand thew way the game code handles Pen and warhead size I'm thinking reducing Pen will "only" effect the probability of a hit damaging/destroying something. This would have no effect on the effect radius.
Now adjusting the warhead size does effect the radius. Now I also know adjusting the warhead size also various other effects as well so more experimenting will be needed to get the "proper" effects.

The other thing is ... it may be that setting a weapon to WC=14 (Cluster Bomb, MLRS) automatically means the effect radius is "X" and the warhead size has no effect on the radius.

Again, experimentation is called for.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Based on some video and other sources to include a retired USA Arty Col. I work with on the base here, the modeling isn't to far off the mark considering today's advanced CM Arty rounds. All you have to do is look at the damage caused by them in Dessert Storm it wasn't all just air dropped CBU's in those pictures. The rounds are more advanced now then they were ten years ago. To put things in prospective I highly recommend to all you take a few minutes to read this article from this website from Ft. Sill home to the USA Artillery Training School. This is indeed a sad day that this has to come from a retired sub sailor. Here's the email addy info: http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/2002/...PAGES_8_11.pdf
I use my arty as described in the article and prefer it with CM capability. When trying to prevent a breach by the AI with it's armor I'm not afraid to dump it within 200m of my position and that's right they fall long or short (And I have paid the price too! But no guts no glory.). If there's a personal issue then adjust your arty accuracy, I use 85 to 90 percent always. We're not a 100% yet but getting closer with the USA's newest SP Arty unit in testing now, featured on History Channels "Lock n Load" program this past fall on the subject.
Have a great day!
Pat
P.S. Have you seen what a cruise missile will do to tanks etc.? Stir, Stir, Stir!

[Marcello]

Some points to consider.
The thread has been about the effectiviness of cluster rounds, in particular tube artillery ones.
The article in question on the other hand deals primarily with unitary rounds; in particular it deals with the effects against armored targets, arguing that they have been underestimated. While others issues are touched, included cluster ammo, it is only in very tangential manner.
I am pretty sure he makes good points even if I get a slight "artillery rules" vibe from the piece. But eventually what does it tell us about the effectiviness of cluster rounds? Not much.
What would be relevant would be an article which takes this for example and analyzes performances in terms of area coverage, density/distribution and effects on target.

The rounds are more advanced now then they were ten years ago.

To the best of my understanding no new model of cluster rounds have been introduced in widespread service in the US since then.
70s M483A1 and 80's M864 are still the mainstay AFAIK. Smart submunitions like SADARM were seen as the next step in the 90's but cost and lack of worthwhile targets have led to them being deleted or being produced in minimal quantities.
There should be a cluster variant of excalibur in development but precision unitary rounds are the priority now.

[Imp]

Just an update here for anyone thats intrestead as must have stuck in my head so noticed.
Yep 155s cover 250m across most rockets more but TOS-1 & several others like the CM mortars only effect adjacent hexes so 150m just like regular arty rounds from my observations.

[Wdll]

I can't start changing the effects of weapons to whatever I feel like since I am playing with other humans PBEM games. Thanks for the suggestion.
It DOESN'T BOTHER ME.
Just forget it. Don't be bothered to do anything.