Beware of Ashdod

[chrispedersen]

I'd like to hear from people that have actually played Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath.

I have stated that I think Hinnom is one of the strong contenders.

I don't find that to be the case with Ashdod - at all. In my most recent case of playing Ashdod, two players collaborated so quickly and got forge of the ancients up, that the game was essentially decided by about turn 30. Ashdod was a nonfactor.

I find ashdod to be hamstrung by the incredible expense of all its units. You will be choosing to build *a* mage or *a* sc chassis. This is one nation that is seriously hamstrung by upkeep costs.

Ashdod has the ability to all of the things that people claim here. And at the same time - it can't. The paucity of units, and the paucity of money - means you have to be much much much more focused on whatever *single* strategy you chose to follow.

No doubt a lot of it is style - but I didn't find them fun - at all.

As an example of the problem- what is the gold cost / research point of its available researchers - compared to other nations?

[Nikelaos]

well if you have some earth access you may be able to strike out the sacreds with some ease mid game, destruction/iron bane to make that heavy armour fall in heaps and then strike em out with heavy hitters(predators lizards, barbarians, anything weilding a lance) boosted with strength of giants.

another thing to think about is raiding, their awesome troops cost a national debt so it makes sense early game, also unrest causing spells on their capital also work as previously stated

[Gregstrom]

Sages would be the primary choice: 175 gold for 6 RP, but you don't have to build a lab for them. That makes them quite nice, really.

Talmai are a little more efficient, at 400g+sacred for 9 RP.

Zamzummites are 310g+sacred for, err, 7 rp? But... IMHO they are more about forging, casting and battle mage duties than researching.

Ashdod's research isn't exactly cheap, but it's not excessively weak. And pretty much any of their researchers can be a useful battle mage if you need them to be.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

Sages would be the primary choice: 175 gold for 6 RP, but you don't have to build a lab for them. That makes them quite nice, really.

Talmai are a little more efficient, at 400g+sacred for 9 RP.

Zamzummites are 310g+sacred for, err, 7 rp? But... IMHO they are more about forging, casting and battle mage duties than researching.

Ashdod's research isn't exactly cheap, but it's not excessively weak. And pretty much any of their researchers can be a useful battle mage if you need them to be.

Pretty much making my point for me.
Your idea of an efficient researcher - the Talmai - cost 44gp/rp.
Compare that with other nations at 25/rp.

Everyone considers the Seshai the preeminent sacred warrior of MA. Unit for unit - probably right. But effectiveness per gp - and I don't think they are even close.
At a cost of 125 gp - and 48 resources.. I can get *5* jaguar warriors.

And 5 jaguar warriors with a competent bless are going to beat 1 sheshai -every time.
So, on the critical question of effectiveness/gp - Mictlan - and a lot of other nations - win.


The problem is that jaguar warriors attrit - and sheshai don't. AND ashdod can get up to the point where he's cranking out 4-6 of these every turn, from one castle given time Mictlan, to crank out 20-30 of these per turn will need 3-4 castles.

Ashdod has to be jumped on fast - but I don't seem them as I dont see these as worse than niefle.



Lingchi made the point that everyone was afraid to attack ashdod - and so they won. But I would submit to you that its a self fulfilling prophecy. Don't attack any nation - and they *will* win. The opponents of ashdod decided to ignore the 600 lb gorilla in the room - which is a sure recipe to lose.

Ashdod has a number of great advantages.
-First, people don't know how to counter - and are afraid to.
-Second, their sacred troops don't require a lot of bless. Frankly, I think an F4-6N4-8 is all thats required, although an S assist for the magic resistance is a good thing.
-Third they don't attrit. They take almost no casualties, so they benefit strongly from experience. Which means that the 600 pound gorilla is much stronger later than earlier.
And on that same point- the game graphs are deceptive.

People tend to rank leaders by province, gem income, army strength, and perhaps research. But the army strength graph in asdods case is almost meaningless.. (same sort of problem with niefle)..

[Zeldor]

chrispedersen:

No, you don't have to choose. Ashdod mages are either SCs or thugs. They can either cast spells of fight in melee. They don't die of old age, they are immune to remote attacks.

You don't need some insane bless, 2x9 is not necessary, just E9-10 + N6 does a great job. So you have plenty of points to spend on decent scales [you are fine with 5-6 dom and you get 120 points free from heat3],

[Stavis_L]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

• Ridiculously tough PD
  [...]
• Archers with 16 protection, Range 50 and 17 damage bows

Regarding these, the PD has very low morale, and is quite susceptible to the standard Misfortune 2 barbs/knights in strengths < 35 or so. I would definitely not call it "ridiculously tough." The archers are nice, but *expensive* (especially in resources) and (currently) can't get fire arrows. OK, the fire arrows would be overkill anyway

[MaxWilson]

Ashdod's PD morale is pretty good IMHO. The Edomites are low-morale, but Gileadites have Morale 13 or so. Also, in practice their high HP seems to prevent them from easily routing. In SP, I seldom see a battle lost because of routing that would have been won if the PD had survived, which to me is what makes PD feel like "low morale." (Helheim has this problem, for instance, with PD < 20. Once the serfs are dead the Huskarls run away.) PD 10 will sometimes stand off barbarian attacks or even knight attacks, and PD 20 will often stand off knights and usually stand off barbarians. To me that's about all you can ask for in PD, although I don't concur with DonCorazon's opinion that the PD is "ridiculously tough" either (although *Hinnom*, pre-nerf, did have *ridiculously* tough PD for the price).

With Ashdod as strong as it is, though, I wouldn't object to seeing its PD nerfed a bit. I've previously suggested Edomites + humans, vs. the current Gileadites + Edomites.

Random thought: according to the EA Hinnom text for Qedesot, all Rephaim are male and rely on (Avvite) Qedesot to bear them sons. Ashdod doesn't seem to have any Qedesot left. Where do all the Bashanites, Gileadites, etc., come from? To me this is also part of the thematic justification for removing Rephaite Gileadites from Ashdod PD. Let them be a nation mostly composed of Edomites.

You could nerf Ashdod pretty hard-core by making Zamzummites cap-only. That would make me cry, and avoid Ashdod the way I avoid Helheim now that you can't make Svartalfs. The memory of what once was is tragic.

-Max

P.S. I think CBM makes Ktonian Necromancers cap-only. That also makes me cry. I would likewise object to restricting Sauromancers to the capital. Good recruitable-anywhere battlemages are my primary criteria for selecting a nation.

[vfb]

Slightly OT, but Gath PD is nice too. 10 is usually sufficient against barbarians, and at 20 you start getting sacreds.

[cthulhu]

I'm the guy playing Ashdod in the game that DonCorazon was talking about.

IMHO, Ashdod is the most powerful MA nation, and arguably more powerful than even the best EA nations:
1. Sacred capital-only soldiers that are better than any other MA nations sacred soldiers, almost as good as the best of EA. When combined with a good bless, Ashdod sacred soldiers have no major weaknesses, and lots and lots of strengths (strat move 3, very high HP, high attack and defense, 2 attacks each, one of which is magic, very high damage, decent protection, bezerk, fire resistance, MR 15, plus whatever your bless grants).
2. Capital-only recruitable commanders that make better thugs than anything recruitable in MA, almost as good as the best of EA.
3. When fighting EA strong sacred nations (ie Neifelheim) you can sabotage their capital with spells and spies. That can be a bit difficult if they're doing an SC strategy, as their commanders don't need too terribly many resource points, but it can work. Ashdod is less vulnerable to this strategy because in addition to awesome capital-only units Ashdod also has excellent buildable anywhere units, particularly the Zamzummite (all Zamzummites can cast raise skeletons/dead, 62.5% can cast Summon Earthpower and thus all the E3 spells that usually follow that, and 25% can cast either magma eruption or GfH after summon earthpower - and they are sacred, holy-1, and very tough). The Gileadite archers are kinda decent too.
4. Decent PD.
5. Decent national summons. At conjuration 6, the Dirge for the Dead summon makes a decent SC chassis (innate 0 encumbrance sacred etherial undead giant, with excellent combat stats, an extra misc slot, decent starting equipment, etc. The main disadvantage is a small insanity rating). At Conjuration 7, Call Hashmal is a decent way to convert astral gems into a preacher. Call Arel is a good way to get rid of afflictions (which Ashdod desperately needs, since it has lots of thugs and SCs without recuperation), to get an extra holy-3 for divine blessings, and to get access to higher level nature magic. At conjuration 8, Call Ophan is an good (though slightly bizarre) thug (holy-3 flying lifeless etherial protection 20 size 6 trampler) for 49 astral gems. Banquet for the Dead is a higher level variant of Dirge for the Dead, but I don't like it as much as the main unit produced has a higher insanity rating, and extra magic paths that aren't particularly useful on an SC. At conjuration 9, Call Merkavah takes a ridiculous amount of astral gems (222, compared to 100 astral + 20 nature to just wish for the same unit and GoR it), but it is IMHO the best SC chassis in the game, slightly better than even a Seraph, though not as effective at combat magics (it's hard to beat the Seraphs F4A4S4H4). It comes with excellent bodyguards too, maybe even worth the extra cost incurred by casting Call Merkavah instead of Wish.
I consider Ashdod national summons to be overall not quite as good as Bandar Log or Marginon/Pythium/Ermor, but more diverse than those, and significantly better than Tien Chi or any other MA nation.

Note: the forge bonus is not quite as good as it sounds: when you look at the actual forge costs when combined with a dwarven hammer, it has no effect on 5-gem item costs, only a 1 gem difference on 10-gem items, and a 2 gem difference on 15-gem items. Significant, but not like 25% forge bonuses that some nations have access to.

That said, I still expect to lose that game.

If someone wanted to nerf Ashdod, I would recommend starting by reducing the Zamzummites E1 to a 50% chance of E1, raising the base encumbrance on Sheshai Anakites and Ahiman Anakites by 1, and increasing the gluttony by about 50% on each unit plus an extra 100% on the capital-only commanders.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by cthulhu

Banquet for the Dead is a higher level variant of Dirge for the Dead, but I don't like it as much as the main unit produced has a higher insanity rating, and extra magic paths that aren't particularly useful on an SC.

I think Dirge for the Dead is great. You get a Malik (15% Shattered Soul) who can cast Soul Vortex and either Invulnerability, Fire Shield/Phoenix Pyre, or Personal Luck/Teleport (depending upon which variant you get), as well as Blood Vengeance if you have nothing better to do than research Blood-9. (Non-factor, really, but interesting.) You also get 4 awesome sacred Ditanu with zero insanity, MR 18, ethereality, lots of hit points, good att/def, etc. Both the Malik and the Ditanu are Morale 30, so unlike regular Ahimans/Adonim/She****es they won't rout when faced with Hydras/Ghosts/etc. You get the standard undead strengths/weaknesses, which in this case is really good because Cold/Poison immunity added to Fire resistance covers almost the full spectrum, whereas weaknesses (Dust to Dust vuln) matter less because of high HP + regen of 6+ HP per turn (assuming E10N6).

I can't say enough good things about Soul Vortex. Best spell an SC can have--chaff-killing + reinvig + regen all in one neat little package. You'll need a death booster or a death gem to cast it w/ Malkim.

-Max