RE: "Upgrade" options between Dominion series.

[Gandalf Parker]

Gooles said:
I'd also though, like to elaborate on my original statement in that my main concern was that we pay the same amount of money for a game in which many of the game's elements have been recycled from a game I already have paid for.

Personally I PREFER it that way. I get really irritated when I like a game and buy the next version only to discover that it has nothing at all to do with the previous game.

And the recycling has little to do with the cost anyway. Just about everything in the game went thru major changes. I dont think that any of the games code, interface, graphics, sound wasnt reworked and upgraded not to mention the tons of new things added. About the only "recycled" thing is the concept of the game which I am very happy they didnt change.

[Gooles]

meh, I feel like I'm getting mean here, but much of the game is recycled, and my point is that I've already paid for much of this code once.
Specific Changes:
*Outstanding soundtrack
*Main UI was ever-so-slightly changed, new color (though I downloaded a mod to make the UI a nice shade of blue)
*A few cool new pieces of eye candy (light effects, new spells =new spell graphics. New units received new sprites. Oh, and grass.)
*Great new race-specific spells add another feeling of customization
*A major blow to micromanagement with automatic tax adjustment
*(Not particularly fond of this one)Units are now shown in scaled down form to represent an army on a map instead of a scaled sized red square.
*Few new items
*Automatic "hosting" of turns when a turn is ended.
*In exchange for customizing race with "ages" and castle types, you can now play all ages with terrain dependent castles.
*Three new races
*Bug fixes from Dom2
*built in random map generator (which seldom places me in a home province in which you are unable to move out of via land units. Still an excellent feature though.)
*Aging (or at least more obvious)
*New age
*I believe there were new combat tactics options added
*Maybe some changes to multiplayer? Not sure, mostly stick to SP.

Things copied from Dom2 (non-specific for sake of my time):
*Majority of UI
*Combat mechanics
*Couple maps copied.... I think (Mods fix)
*Great majority of spells and their effects (Notably lack of additions to "wish" spell)
*Majority of pretenders (mods fix this again though, especially the one that updates pretenders' sprites that I can't seem to find anymore. If you know where it is, I'd really really appreciate a link to it)
*Sprites for old units
*Majority of the items
*Many special sites
*Arena matches are the same (less graphics, where light effects molest my PC on very high battle gfx setting)
*Nothing interesting added to alchemy
*Score chart & hall of fame almost completely the same (less how score chart works when a nation loses)
*random events for the most part, are the same
*diplomacy (ha.)
*Mercenaries
*Blood slaves

Now, these changes are great. Adding to an already good game only makes it better, but it doesn't make it a new game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Sorry but I was on the beta team and watched a year of upgrading to those "copied" items. Such as combat mechanics, the old maps, pretenders, sprites, items, sites, events, mercs. We put our input in on it and things were changed.

The only ones you mentioned that I dont remember changes on are blood slaves, diplomacy (thank god), alchemy, wish (what in the world would you add to that?)

If you wanted a COMPLETE rewrite then it wouldnt be a new version. It would be a new game.

[llamabeast]

3 new races? I had thought there were more than that.

[MaxWilson]

Edi said:
I happen to disagree with the so-called "Try before buy" approach on ethical grounds, especially given the existence of demos and given that Dom3 is not the first but second sequel which is fairly similar to its predecessors.

At first I thought you were criticizing the existence of demos, which would be disappointing to me because by the time I really decided to try out Dominions, Dominions 2 (the one I had originally heard of and intended to try) was no longer being sold, just the demo for Dominions 3, so starting with the earlier edition was a no go. Knowing what I now know about the difference between 2 and 3 I'm glad I started with 3. But, that's not what you were talking about.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Gooles said:
I actually got the idea from a game called Wall Street Raider where updates (which are usually major additions to the game, higher res. options, etc) are only $7 as compared to the $20 to originally purchase. It's not that I can't afford the game, it's just other games with much higher costs in production are cheaper to purchase. Upon rethinking it though, I suppose bigger isn't better and that dev. quality is what counts.

Hmmm, maybe Shrapnel should have charged an extra $7 for monthly site-searching in 3.08, and another $7 for the Great Boar of Carnutes and Fomoria, and $7 for the Tuatha? Naah. Illwinter is generous with their free updates--and so I'm not inclined to be stingy in return.

On the other hand, if Illwinter *did* start selling expansion packs, as Megalobob suggests, I probably wouldn't buy them if they were just more nations. The UI/AI improvements are more important to me than the content, and perhaps this is why I feel that Dominions 3 is more than just an "update" of Dominions 2. From what I know about 2, 3 is a lot smarter and more usable.

-Max

[Sombre]

Yeah, if Illwinter did expansions and they were essentially just new content like spells, nations etc I'd pass on them. I can get plenty of that via mods and modding.

[SlipperyJim]

I really, really, really don't understand the complaint that Dom3 is just recycled Dom2 plus a little bit. The whole point of sequels is that they should: A) preserve those qualities which made the original game enjoyable, B) eliminate the annoyances of the older versions, and C) add some new stuff for gamers to enjoy. And yes, I put that list in order for a reason.

The most important part of a sequel is to preserve those qualities which made the previous version(s) fun to play. Seriously. Without that, there is no continuity between the versions, and you might as well be playing a new game. Dom3 scores high marks in this category.

The next priority is to eliminate the annoying features of previous versions. For strategy games, the most significant area for improvement is the AI. Another good improvement is to streamline as much micro-management as possible. Whether it's Civ4 or Dom3, a solid sequel will try to eliminate much of the pointless button clicking, slider juggling, and other micro-management tasks which tend to bog down strategy games. When I play Civ4, I want to pretend to be an emperor, not some bureaucrat who is constantly tweaking my citizens for maximum productivity. And when I play Dom3, I want to pretend to be an aspiring god, not some revenue agent who massages the tax rates in every province. Again, Dom3 scores high marks here.

(I might be a bit biased because I never played Dom2, so my experience is straight from Dom1 to Dom3. From my perspective, Dom3 has seriously reduced the micro-management that I was used to suffering....)

Finally, the least important category is new stuff. Why is this category the least important? Because the old stuff was pretty good, or you wouldn't bother playing the sequel! Dom3 inherited a solid foundation of good content from the previous Dominions versions. You liked them, right? So why wouldn't you like more of the same? Still, without some new stuff to savor, the sequel might seem boring, so give us some new stuff! And Dom3 succeeds here, too, with new nations, new ages, the dormant/imprisoned pretender options, nation-specific spells, and more. Also, as others have mentioned, Illwinter keeps coming up with more new stuff in their free patches.

Finally, if you've somehow managed to exhaust the content in Dom3 off-the-shelf ... there are always mods. Gratuitous Plug: Try any of Sombre's nation mods, especially Ulm Reborn.

[Archonsod]

Gooles said:
I'd also though, like to elaborate on my original statement in that my main concern was that we pay the same amount of money for a game in which many of the game's elements have been recycled from a game I already have paid for.

You're in a minority there, if EA's business is anything to go by

The thing is, you pay for the game not the code. One could ask why you should pay full price for any game based, for example, on the Unreal engine if you've already bought Unreal, despite the fact that they may be radically different games. It's not the amount of code which is changed that's important, it's the effect of those changes on the game.

=/ I'd find it morally asinine to ban me from forums (or worse if much care is truly felt necessary) for admitting I pirated (and then purchased) a game.

Well, announcing the fact on the publishers forums is rather akin to going around to a house you burgled and trying to sell the owner their possessions back. Can't blame them for being a little annoyed.

[Gooles]

Archonsod said:
[1]You're in a minority there, if EA's business is anything to go by

[2] The thing is, you pay for the game not the code. One could ask why you should pay full price for any game based, for example, on the Unreal engine if you've already bought Unreal, despite the fact that they may be radically different games. It's not the amount of code which is changed that's important, it's the effect of those changes on the game.

[3]Well, announcing the fact on the publishers forums is rather akin to going around to a house you burgled and trying to sell the owner their possessions back. Can't blame them for being a little annoyed.

[1] I think you'll find that BF2124 sold but a fraction of games that BF2 did, and BF2 still has many filled servers, assuming that was what you were referring to. (I'll never understand why people buy new versions of a sports game annually)
[2] **based on Unreal engine
Games that graphically intense require nearly everything to be modified to fit the game's "mood" anyways. As well, companies big enough to have an Unreal engine usually don't use the same engine again (Maybe Unreal 2008, but not the same engine, unless w.o. extreme modification).
[3] Of course... The goods were already sold back. (I'm still awaiting contact from an admin).

MaxWilson said:
Hmmm, maybe Shrapnel should have charged an extra $7 for monthly site-searching in 3.08, and another $7 for the Great Boar of Carnutes and Fomoria, and $7 for the Tuatha? Naah. Illwinter is generous with their free updates--and so I'm not inclined to be stingy in return.

<.< I said MAJOR changes. As in, an entirely new aspect to the game, new graphical abilities, etc. (I appreciate the updates devs give though, whilst noting that almost every dev. company does this)

Gandalf Parker said:
f you wanted a COMPLETE rewrite then it wouldn't be a new version. It would be a new game.

Yeah..... That's kinda my point. New versions usually don't require as much work as new games and the price tag should reflect that.