Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]

[HoneyBadger]

I would call any unit capable of successfully fighting alone, an SC. That's the point of an SC, that they can take and hold territory by themselves.

Thugs come in groups and work in groups as a unit.
Thugs are the A-team, they're commandos. They're small, elite units that can perform independently from your army, but not from each other.

SCs are Superman. They do it all by themselves.

I would call anything specialized-like an assassin or a scout-a support unit, not a thug.

[Saxon]

Hmm, fair enough, I don't think we have a solid dictionary on this. However, I alwyas thought a thug was a unit you could send off to trash the back side of the enemy empire. The run into PD and small armies and eat them, but if they hit a real army they are done for. A SC is a unit that can take the big armies and eat them. In both cases, they do it themselves. The missle units just don't deliver in that area.

This is why we hear about Black Servant thugs. They can and do operate alone, but are not big army killers.

As an aside, a support unit I have recently been enjoying is my "Fort Killer." It is a commander with a "Gate Splitter" and an endless wine skin. Brings extra knock down power to your seige and helps make sure they don't starve. Also nice for carrying gems...

[PvK]

LA Ulm with blood&death pretendder

* Hochmeister with blessing and a 0-3 items. Adding a weapon with decent Defense rating (Sword of Sharpness is fine - have a Black Priest site search until you get some Earth income) is a big step up, guarded by 2-4 Black Templars.

More later... got to run...

[PvK]

I use Thugs as a common part of my main armies. In fact, one of my favorite aspects of Dominions (especially in single-player, where evilly deadly magic and SC's are less common), is to use mainly national human troops and commanders and develop the best human warrior commanders as thugs fighting amidst the mortal armies.

That said, my other suggestions for thugs as requested:

EA C'Tis with an all-path pretender
- The two armored commanders with a few trinkets on - they don't look great but mine have got into the Hall of Fame even with few or no items in multi-player.
- Banes and Bane Lords.
- Sleepers.
- All paths is great for combining a bunch of cheap hammer-forged trinkets to make a fairly cheap multi-ability thug out of an experienced commander. Human opponents might decide to target them though to get the items just because they will look tempting.

EA Ermor with an earth pretender
- Commanders with trinkets from national mages.
- Banes and Bane Lords.
- Forging Hammer, Marble Armor, and Boots of Stone are a few good thuggish uses of the Earth magic.

MA Ermor with a death pretender
- Banes and Bane Lords.

Vanheim with a water&earth pretender
- Vans with or without blessings and trinkets.

[Fate]

Saxon said:
Hmm, fair enough, I don't think we have a solid dictionary on this...

Actually, the one who coined the terms (apoger) kindly furnished us with a specific definition:

apoger said:
New Classifications


A while back I coined the term Supercombatant as a description of super high power units. Over time players have started to use this term in ways that are different than the initial meaning. This has caused some frustrating conversations, and subsequent confusion. Simply put, the Dominions community needs more naming conventions so players can communicate with more precision.

Many players have started using the term Supercombatant for almost anything larger than heavy infantry. That isn't very useful since the scope of units that are more potent than heavy infantry is fairly large. As such I am now suggesting two new classifications, and redescribing the term Supercombatant.


THUG

Simply put a thug goes out and beats things up and has a reasonable chance of surviving. Thugs don't beat up high power armies, and they aren't meant to be invincible. They are meant to be cheap and efficient ways of applying a beat down.

Some examples of thugs would be:
Neifelheim Giant
Hydra
Wyrm (no/little magic)
Vanjarl - with magic weapon and casting mistform
Jotun Herse - with a few choice magic items
Troll
Lava Warrior
Knight

As you can see there is a hefty power scale fluctuation even in the thug classification. However these guys are not Supercombatants and that is what I am trying to make clear.


SLAYER

A Slayer is a unit that has been cultivated to be powerful enough to wreck conventional armies. This is really a specialized sub-class of supercombatant. The Slayer is built with cost cutting in mind, to make it as cheap as possible and still be able to disperse conventional forces. Slayers are not meant to deal with mages or magic creatures. They are used primarily as an early game expansion aid, and as attack/defense while player nations aren't fielding much magic. During the late game when potent magic is available, Slayers are usually relegated to raiding duty.


Some examples of slayers would be:

Manticore
Astral magic - 6
On entering battle it casts, Body Etheral, Personal Luck, Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, and then attacks.

Heliophagus
Wraith Sword, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Pendent of Luck, Ring of Regeneration


SUPERCOMBATANT

Supercombatants are built in an attempt to walk onto a battlefield alone and clean house versus any opposition. The potency/penetration of the spell Paralyze has made life a bit tough on Supercombatants and players of Dom2 are using more thugs and slayers than they did in Dom1. Still it's fun to use them, and they can still be effective. Just keep in mind that they are very powerful, but not invincible.

Slayer, obviously, didn't quite fly, but Thug and SC have made it into Dom III terminology. I think the usages have changed with Dom III some, due to the many changes that specifically weaken SCs.

[Tyrant]

To me the difference between a Thug and an SC is that an SC can kill a whole army by itself and a thug is a raider or support element.

There are dozens of potential chassis for Thugs- you are looking for 30+ hp, good skills and decent MR. Flight, resistences, stealth, etherial and life drain are all good too. Morale is also a consideration, especialy for raiders, but you can compensate with items if you have to.
Candidates include various badass national leaders, Troll Kings, firbolgs, Ivy Kings, the devil from horde of imps, and plenty of others, but the classic thug chasis is the Bane Lord.

When you build an SC you want the best gear you can build regardless of cost- invincibility is the goal. When you make a thug cost is a big factor- you are looking for bang for the buck, especially if you need a bunch of them.

There are two types of thugs, and i'll just make up names for them now. The Mass Murderer is meant to add lethality to an army or be a raider and his job is to cut down regular troops by the dozens. The Hitman's job is to take down extra-tough enemy troops and/or SCs.

Both types need luck and benefit greatly from quickness. Mass Murderers want AE weapons- Fire or Frost Brands- and usually want regen as well. Hitmen want high damage weapons, strength buffs, attack skill boosts and probably resistance tailored to the circumstances.

[PvK]

I like to substitute bodyguards, defense, and protection instead of high hit points and regeneration. Then many units can make good thugs.

[Shovah32]

High hitpoints are generally just for safety, if aa thug or SC takes decent damage from something chances are they will die eventually.

[CelestialGoblyn]

Manticore
Astral magic - 6
On entering battle it casts, Body Etheral, Personal Luck, Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, and then attacks.

What is 'Astral Weapon'? I couldn't find such a spell.
I did however test this build and it's quite good indeed.

[Shovah32]

Im pretty sure astral weapon didnt make it into dominions 3 but in dom 2 it just made all your attacks AN iirc.

Back to the original topic can anyone think of particularly effective thug builds?