Austrian OOB, old and new

[PlasmaKrab]

You're right, Shan, the Jaeger platoon will be tough.
Two versions can pass as such though: the dismounted platoon (without trucks) and one without CG teams (kind of "Jaeger Plt -AT").
For the motorized version, I'd advise to go about the same way as with the Panzergrenadiere, make an agglomerate command section with 9-10 men and StG/sniper/CG/grenade, and keep a single AT team and a single sniper separate. Leaves room for three trucks.
Now the Pandur platoon is another matter.

Radios is not much of a problem. Command sections are of a separate class that gets high radio rating early on. The average sections are left without much of a chance to get a radio until recent years, and so the platoon must operate within shouting distance (spread over 10 hexes is reasonable for 4 sections), but can operate independently away from HQ.

[narwan]

Just for the record, the common practice in OB's is (or should be) to incorporate platoon and company level snipers into the squads, not as seperate units. That's becasue these function as part of a larger group (the squad) and not as free agents. The russians in their mech platoons for example have a support section that includes a sniper rifle. That's the platoon sniper incorporated into the squad. Seperate sniper units should be used to represent those snipers who operate independently. There is a grey area though, as the russian para-platoons for example have a separate independent sniper.

Narwan

[PlasmaKrab]

The problem with integrating snipers into squads (particularly in the Russian motor rifles) is the number of weapon slots. When you have to deal with a squad with AK-74s, one or two PKs, one RPG-7, the odd RPG-18, at least 2 BG-15 plus hand grenades, you don't want to top that with a sniper rifle or MANPADS.
As far as I'm concerned, I've modeled the Russian BMP/BTR platoon with three identical squads (AK/PK/RPG/grenade) plus a separate sniper and a separate SAM (optional). Notice that standard separate SAM team is 2 men, and that standard snipers are generally highly-trained units not consistent with the Russian doctrine. So both sniper and SAM I've copied into new mech infantry unit classes, both with a crew of 1 and a size of 1 (reduced concealment ability).
I'm not 100% satisfied with it, since both separate 1-man units tend to die a lot.

If you look, the official US OOB uses a similar trick for mech units regarding Dragon/Javelin teams.

[Siddhi]

hi chaps a lot of really good discussion here, i will summarise the key points FMPOV.

- the three units i have shown is the "actual" and official OOB for the periods in question, this is derived from various bits of army manuals i have.

- the OOB has already been slightly simplified; e.g. the J�ger units all have so-called "combat drivers" as part of their org (e.g. for the pinzgauer) who are fully-equipped/trained light infantry, howewever as there principle job is to protect the tranports (they never realyl go away from them) there is no reason to include them. also some other units, such as the motorcyle recce / couriers (2 per company) have been taken out.

- the austrian j�ger company has a very heavy TO&E, this is a historic and well known fact. the j�ger bN itself has the assets most infantry regiments have. the reason for this is primarily political - a BN sounds smaller then a regiment. one thing that is repeated a lot in our old manuals is the problems in having a such a large unit to command as a company commander, especially as it would nearlly always have another company-sized assets (!) attached in support.

- the TO&E is intended to be playable and WINSPMBT conform, therefore things that should not be in there (i.e. ammo trucks) should be removed.

- the question regarding company XO units is a litte more complicated, as because of the poor radio sitation before ca. 1990(only platoon has access to company/BN/* net, no tactical radios except for recce / scout patrols the XO performed a vital function in extending "the command radius". as DRG mentioned they are instant targets one option is to simply give them more men, if we remove the "generic" supply units that becomes kind of important anyway.i would say add a couple of men and keep them.

OTOH the J�ger squad itself is commanded by professional NCOs (not like WP) that have on average at least 4 years experience. there should be a "rally" bonus to these unit commanders (rank: "wachtmeister", at least.) One the platoon level there is also sometimes an "detached" XO to help the platoon commander (which I did not add), as the platoon is supposed to be able to cover on average 100m frontage (sometimes more, or less).


- the snipers and M2 HMG were a platoons heavy support. Some suggestions have already been made, a little more info: the two snipers are "true" snipers (trained in all 8 "sniper skills", not marksman, which offically every infantryman is supposed to be - also internationally verified). at least one is "special" enlisted man, sometimes one is a junior NCO. The HMG also operates independantly, as is usally not part of a platoon.

OTOH as many will know I disagree with the accuracy levels of some the rifles and believe contrary to recieved wisdom here that is very important - these days my acutal day-time job is national security and we have very precise results that are expected to be achieved from various units firing at various other units in different positions and with different equipment. The accuracy of the Stg-77 is for instance one reason why we did not orginally introduce rifle-gernades, as they were simply not needed (as opposed to hand gernades).

as i believe we are not going to be able to solve this debate one possibility is to make the snipers organic to the squads - which is NOT what they usually are (snipers, not marksman) and do the same with the M2. i am not in favor of this, but if this is the only way to accurately model a j�ger platoon then that is it. of ocurse the squad manpower would have to be adjusted as a result. still while the combat power of the squad might increase marginally the platoon combat power will fall as a result.

the other option would be to put one sniper (in slot 2) in the platoon command squad, and one independant. i would NOT make the transport organic as we have "command problems" already, simply making a seperate category "company tranpsort" (under the command of the XO) might be more appropriate. OTOH if the transport HAS to be organic (i leave this to PK and SHAN to decide - PK made a good suggestion regarding dismounted "reinforced" ja�ger platoon and mounted "normal" j�ger) then it is also possible to mount the m2 on the puch light transport, as indeed it is intended, although in this case the transport needs to be upgraded with 1 armour each (plating is added in this function).

- finally i forgot to mention that the pandur obviously changes things somewhat, the units become more streamlines, but that is the "new" TO&E which we will get to. before that however the Bill-2000 (RBS ATGW) are introduced (Say 1996) and start to replace the RL guns. BTW if the 106 DO NOT have their stats changed i insist on the 85mm being used instead.

- final point: i am unsure as to ammo loadout for the CG teams. in retrospect i seem to remember those goddamned heavy shells being carried two to a container - which means there should be 8 rather then 16 shells for a normal team (say 10 with the commander), however in present SPMBT the two-man teams already pack that much, and the team should certainly have twice as much munition as do others internationally ( this topic came up before in officer thing, the swedes mentioned that we "got a lot of milleage" from the CG because of all the munition we had for it. i leave this open to be decided. btw the CG team usually had a radio.

i will try to punch out the other units in the next two days.

[PlasmaKrab]

Guys,

Attached here is a first version of the platoon-level formations of the PzGrenadiere and J�gers, and details of the relevant unit classes.
I've tried to compromise between stand-alone support weapons and available unit slots in the formations. All the hows and whys are explained inside.

[Siddhi]

My perfered solution for the above mentioned problem of too many units for the j�ger platoon:

- 1 sniper as marksman in the platoon command section (slot 2), 1 sniper independant

- M2HMG mounted on the Puch halflinger (1st vehicle) as AAMG, Puch to be "up armoured" with 1 armor value

In contrast, we can say the "Gaurd" BN does not have assigned transport (they do, but..) but in contrast has the "original" J�ger OOB listed above, i.e. all support sections seperate. NB: this is not really accurate, but it'll do!

So, the difference in the "Garde" to the "J�ger" OOB is
- no vehicles attached
- all support units independant
- Experience +3, Moral + 5 (compared to the "average" J�ger)

The "Honor Gaurd" Company is a bit different. These guys get additional training and have their own specific Company layout. Besides being the "parade soldiers" they also had very challanging war duties, such as protecting the government on evacuation.
- Experience +6, Moral + 10

"Ehrengarde" Company
1 x CO Command Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
1x XO Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)

3 x "Ehrengard" Platoon
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77, Grenade,SMG,(SCOUT)
2 x Medium Squads (same as J�ger squad)
2 x Heavy Squad (Stg-77, MG72, CG, Grenade)

1 x Engineer Platoon
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77 Pistol, Grenade (SCOUT)
3 x "Pioneer" Section (8 men): Stg-77, MG72 Satchel Charge (8), SMG

1 x Sniper Group
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77 Pistol, Grenade (SCOUT)
5x Heavy Sniper / Recce Teams ( 2 men):
Heavy Sniper Rifle, Stg-77, Gernade (Vision 40)

[Shan]

Siddhi said:
My perfered solution for the above mentioned problem of too many units for the j�ger platoon:

- 1 sniper as marksman in the platoon command section (slot 2), 1 sniper independant

- M2HMG mounted on the Puch halflinger (1st vehicle) as AAMG, Puch to be "up armoured" with 1 armor value

In contrast, we can say the "Gaurd" BN does not have assigned transport (they do, but..) but in contrast has the "original" J�ger OOB listed above, i.e. all support sections seperate. NB: this is not really accurate, but it'll do!

So, the difference in the "Garde" to the "J�ger" OOB is
- no vehicles attached
- all support units independant
- Experience +3, Moral + 5 (compared to the "average" J�ger)

The "Honor Gaurd" Company is a bit different. These guys get additional training and have their own specific Company layout. Besides being the "parade soldiers" they also had very challanging war duties, such as protecting the government on evacuation.
- Experience +6, Moral + 10

"Ehrengarde" Company
1 x CO Command Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
1x XO Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)

3 x "Ehrengard" Platoon
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77, Grenade,SMG,(SCOUT)
2 x Medium Squads (same as J�ger squad)
2 x Heavy Squad (Stg-77, MG72, CG, Grenade)

1 x Engineer Platoon
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77 Pistol, Grenade (SCOUT)
3 x "Pioneer" Section (8 men): Stg-77, MG72 Satchel Charge (8), SMG

1 x Sniper Group
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77 Pistol, Grenade (SCOUT)
5x Heavy Sniper / Recce Teams ( 2 men):
Heavy Sniper Rifle, Stg-77, Gernade (Vision 40)

I'll have a version of the Jaeger Company ready soon, I'll post it here then. If all transport is pooled at company level, then we have no problems with attached support units - the only problem will be playability, with 9 squads in a platoon... also, the platoon command section cannot be up-rated in morale as I said, and it's pretty useless in the fight with 5 (?) men and poor armament... one sniper rifle for it wold be good, the other one independent as a compromise.

I'd create at least two versions of the whole company anyway- one as mentioned, the other one with the heavy weapons retained in the heavy platoon-- and maybe a third one with the heavy MGs mounted on the light vehicles (Haflinger, also representing Puch G, or better Pinzgauer 4x4?) - but I have my doubts about up-armoring them, even if its L1 and only on the sides of course--- crazy commanders would use them as their support platforms...

A general question: The standard Jaeger company had no orgaic engineers, only at battalion level? But the Garde company did have them?

And the snipers you mentioned - we are talking about 1979-2004--- uprated vision should IMO therefore be gradually introduced..

Also: light anti-armor weapons --- was the M-72 LAW (designation in German??) truly used until 2004? I was told the PAR-70 (Miniman) was the standard weapon, by the way... and the other thing: The Jaeger platoon with Par66 will be erased as it never existed - is that correct?

I haven't heard from you on this, but I'd keep all the designations in German - in a way still understandable for everyone. This is common practice, look at the trends of other modified OOBs, and it's not that bad anyway in our case - take Sweden or Canada where all aircraft have changed designations, etc...

[PlasmaKrab]

Shan, beware with the uparmored trucks. If you want to give them some armor rating, as Siddhi said, give them at least 1 point all over (except maybe on top), otherwise it will be treated as armor while unarmored on several surfaces, and very vulnerable.

[Siddhi]

Um pretty sure that the Miniman should be the PAR67, the PAR70 is the M72A2. They are so similar in appearence that it is confusing, also, during basic sometimes recruits shot the par67 as we are (have) gotten rid of them.
The Par67 goes to the reserve units around 1980 and should be out of general use by 1994, although the joke is that 20 year old (stored) PAR67 is safer to fire then a 15 year old PAR70.

Puch G or Pinz 4 (with M2) were used in KoPoSiPo function, but uparmouring is a bit dicy, you're right. Maybe just give it a 1 frontal armour (for the shield)? pls? )

The J�ger company did not have engineers, but the BN often did - thanks for pointing that out. It is the 4th platoon of the S-Kompanie (KU-K), just 3 engineer groups (Satchel and Claymore) with the standard command section, as listed.

The Gaurd Support company (for the BN) prolly has a engineer platoon as well, but we did not cover that anyway. The HONOUR GAURD company, which these days rotates (used to be 4.Co.) had an enginner group/detachment/platoon (around 20-30 guys IIRC) that had a very strange job indeed...

On vision, again good point, from say 1985 ALL ACTIVE (not landwehr, we will get there) squads had 1, sometimes more, Starlight Scopes (vision 10?15?20? no idea). The snipers in the active units all had them, however on the "normal" sniper rifles SSG-69. The "heavy" snipers in the honour gaurd might have had the SSG-69 or somethign else (i am going with something else) but definetly had full NVGs, as did all HOUNOUR GAURD platoons

[Siddhi]

Btw regarding intergrated CG into squad, very rare as SOP for both LAW and CG is to fire two at a target, b/c if you miss things get a bit hot...the new BH2010 is putting the CG into the squad, which pissed people off, because they don`t get the changed requirements in austria (the CG really used here in FIBUA.

Oh, and both the PAR67 and PAR70 are known as the "anklopfger�t" ("tank doorbell"...as in only good for attracting unwanted attention, bit unfair really)