Some hints on MA R'yleh?

[Darkwind]

I think R'lyeh also gets a powerful Basalt King or something, if I remember correctly he's W4-5. They also get Cthugul, a hero Starspawn, who starts with Void Summoning 3 (1 more than your priest Starspawn), and maybe slightly better magic paths than the normal Starspawn mage. I'm fairly sure MA and LA share the same heros, too, but they might not.

[chrispedersen]

If Ermor is in the game, go Heat 3.
Use as little chaff as possible. As another poster noted, use the unarmored version of the illithid.

I don't use a bless strategy, and I usually don't rely on star gate much. once he gets up to +10 or +11 I switch him out.

I personally don't remember - but does luck influence the void gate? If so reconsider misfortune.. you dont need scales much at all.

Blood Vengeance rock!

[JimMorrison]

I don't think R'lyeh's heroes justify taking a luck scale, in and of themselves. They get a gate summoner who is marginally better at first, then just becomes obsolete when he gets high skill anyways? They get an Aboleth with 4W/4S which is nice, but only 2 misc slots, so ultimately not that spectacular. And they get the Visitor who is 2A/4S or something. Yay, now you finally have an air mage.... with no water. He is pretty neat, but nothing to base a strat around a small random chance to possibly, maybe, eventually get him.

I'm a bit surprised by this Cold talk, it actually has NO effect underwater at all? No income loss or fatigue? Wouldn't 3 Cold somewhat hamper your land expansion though? And also, why do people prefer Cold over Heat in this manner? Inquiring minds want to know, I love R'lyeh, and some extra points would really strengthen my approach.

Also I really have to say, despite other scales, R'lyeh really needs 3 Order, they are so gold hungry (top mages non sacred, primary unit 50g apiece), and unless it's going to be a very fast game, at least 1 Growth to insure that even if you get some bad events, your overall income won't decline over time, but a steadily growing pop is very good for them, as upkeep will mount rapidly once you have your second castle pumping out mages.

[moderation]

Cold makes it harder for Argatha to invade your water provinces.

I tend to agree about the heros though. WIth Order 3, Misfortune 1 or 2 seems like a more optimal choice to me than Luck.

[JimMorrison]

So wait, it affects Agartha, because they're cold-blooded, sure that makes sense. But it doesn't affect R'lyeh? O.o I mean, it just seems kind of painful to take a 15% income hit from Cold scale. I have been going 1 Cold, and justifying it by saying it's in Growth, but even 3 Growth is going to take some time to pay off if 3 Cold is devouring your income bonus.

[MaxWilson]

Ocean provinces do not have their income affected by Cold scales. I understand that they are affected by Heat, and I'm not sure whether it affects supply. I think this must be a deliberate feature of ocean provinces on the part of the developers, because oceans are almost always cold.

I also do not know whether you still take the Enc +2 hit for fighting in Cold-3 underwater. I'm AFG or I would check.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Well I must admit that I find that somewhat odd though. Yes, it tends to be cold underwater..... But if Heat decreases income in the water, then the justification for that is actually totally backwards, IMO. It should be that Cold is worse underwater, because you're making it FROSTY down there, deep ocean can drop well below freezing without becoming ice because of the huge pressures involved. And on the flip side of the coin, added Heat would not make it HOT underwater, merely not extremely cold. If the original assertion is true, then I would argue that all aquatics should at least have a +1 Cold affinity. Otherwise for some reason we are saying they are perfectly at home with frigid living conditions underwater, yet suddenly when they go on land, the cold has detrimental effects.

It would probably be a complicated mechanic to code, but it would be interesting to see some Heat increase income underwater, but severely affect aquatics on land. By the same token, the aquatic races that are attenuated to living in frigid waters would find moving onto land easier in cold climes, but would be harmed by excess cold in their already naturally cold underwater homes.


The plot thickens!

Okay, I ran a test, it took some turns to get my nations to 3 Cold and 3 Heat with no unrest from events (I shoulda tossed in Luck to speed that up ), and here's what I found-

Oceania - 3 Cold - 28240 pop - 705 supplies - 338 income = 83.5 pop/gold
R'lyeh - Even scale - 29700 pop - 884 supplies - 326 income = 91.1 pop/gold
Atlantis - 3 Heat - 29540 pop - 643 supplies - 324 income = 91.1 pop/gold


So at first glance, Cold actually looks like it's giving a 9% income boost (3% per scale?) while reducing supplies slightly. Heat on the other hand is not affecting income, but has a rather huge effect on supplies.

I might check it again later, but this is really weird results so far.

[JimMorrison]

Okay, results of the second test coming in now, to see the synergy of point spending. I did all 3 nations again, but Oceania got the Heat and Atlantis got the Cold this time. Everyone got 3 Order + 3 Growth (just checking straight income potential, not exploring other options for the points), and Oceania and Atlantis used their temp scales to buy 3 Prod as well (R'lyeh has 1 Prod). All 3 have a statue with Dom 5 to simplify that aspect.

Oceania - 3 Heat - 30010 pop - 902 supplies - 447 income = 67.1 pop/gold
R'lyeh - Even - 30360 pop - 1260 supplies - 434 income = 69.9 pop/gold
Atlantis - 3 Cold - 29940 pop - 980 supplies - 485 income = 61.7 pop/gold


The numbers still seem to imply an income boost of about 3% per Cold scale, underwater, at least for aquatic nations. That's not confirmed by me with R'lyeh specifically, but if it's true with both the others.....

[Lingchih]

Hmm. Lots of different thoughts on how to play MA R'lyeh. I have played them quite a lot, including 3 times in MP. So here are my thoughts.

Cold 3, Order, Growth, yes you need all those. I usually go with just a medium dominion myself. And I take a little luck (1), because I really like their heroes, especially the Visitor. Never really found a use for him, but he looks super cool.

For my armies, I use lobos for the meatshield and starspawn artillery at the year, but I add in a 3rd layer for fighting underwater. The awesome Crab Hybrids. They are set between the artillery and the meatshields, on hold and attack, and they clean up when they get to the fighting. They are kind of expensive, and useless when you have to go onto the land (aquatic only), so recruit them wisely.

Recruit the Slave Mages everywhere for your researchers. They are cheap, research well, and have some good randoms.

And have a good strategy for getting up on land. Most of your troops are amphibious, but that doesn't mean they are any good up there. I usually find a shambler province and recruit the heck out of them, for my land based meat shield.
You don't want to be sitting in the water alone late in the game, looking up at the land based players and saying "hey guys, I want to play too".

[chrispedersen]

Well, from the manual, p 51: suggests that eatch hot or cold decreases tax by 5% and supplies by 10%.

I think there is more scatter in the data, than you can accomodate.

Income is affected by type of fortress:
Kelp Cit = admin 40, at ma, oceania
Ramparts (Atlantis EA) = 15
Fortified City (Atlantis LA) =50
Dark cit =20 Ryallah

Basic Form = Pop/100 * Scale modifiers)* 1+fort/200, presuming no unrest.
I don't know your methodologies, but
if you had all neutral scales,


Case 1
Oceania Should be 338, without a hit for cold scales. And it is.
Ryalla Should be 326.7 Close enough.
Atlantis If early age, should be 318. If MA should be 354.
Actual is 324. so either +.5% or -8%.

Case 2:
Oceania, should be 457 Actual is 447. about -2%
R'lyeh , should be 424. Actual 434
Atlantis should be 456 Actual 485. about +6%


So, I don't think you can draw any conclusions. In the first case, oceania clearly did not take a hit from -3 cold. But no one took the expected 15% hit.