Bringing Back the Super Combatant

[Twan]

Actually most listed pretenders can be good SCs with dominion 9/10 up to mid game, except against death nations. Pretenders causing fear and trampling like Dagon are especially good (it's a good example of a pretender not really needing a buff, just give him a high dom and high water or earth, add a reinvigoration item and some cons 2/4 protective gear and he will trample entire armies without a scratch).

The now weak pretenders are more the various titans without natural protection, fear, trampling, etc... By the time you fully equip them with sufficiently good items armies with mages can kill any SC. Recuperation is not the big issue at this point, as nature magic is the most common any nation can usually forge a ring of regeneration.

The big weakness of SCs (as well as big pretenders in general and prophetized thugs) after early game is more ennemy dominion. Once medium magic levels are researched, SCs will always take some dammage or be targeted by anti-sc spells, and it becomes risky to use them out of relatively friendly dominion (say not under -3). But if you are attacking you can't know where the ennemy dominion is low (first turn your SC invade a province with low ennemy dominion near one of your dominion, second turn... he can't continue further without big risk as you can't see the dominions). It makes SCs very predictible, as the ennemy knows which provinces dominions you may see, and in this short list he can be quasi sure you won't attack the ones with high dominion. Finally pretenders/battle prophets become not far to be useless in attack mostly because of that. I think the best change to make them more usable after early game would be to let see dominions of all provinces neighboring one of yours or where you have a scout (in addition to dominions of all provinces neighboring your dominion). -but of course it's out of the moddable bonuses topic-.

[Teraswaerto]

HoneyBadger said:


I'd like to get peoples' thoughts on this, if it's an exciting idea to put SCs back in the game...

The only ones that currently have a chance to solo without being turned into kibble are the Gorgon, the Ancient Kraken, and the Carrion Dragon-all of which are very tough, and all of which are able to heal afflictions.

I don't think this is true. Solo what exactly? Any giant humanoid pretender, preferably with awe and magic for buffs, like fire for Fire Shield, Astral for Luck, Body Ethereal and Astral Shield, etc. outfitted with items can solo armies of AI rabble. Against a human any SC can be taken out.

Do you want a pretender that can take indies solo early on? There are many that can do that already.

Do you want one that can solo AI armies? Take a pretender with magic effective for buffs and all item slots.

[Teraswaerto]

Twan makes a good point about dominion. I rarely use the pretender as an SC since the negative hitpoints will make him much less useful when attacking.

Elemental Kings and Queens and various different Devils make the best SCs, IMO.

[Meglobob]

Yea, I agree with Twan and Teraswaerto, the most effective use of both your pretender and prophet when at war is in defense of your own lands, especially those with high dominion. I now always use my pretender as a quasi SC to protect my homelands and my prophet as a thug.

For example a dragon can have 350+ hps and a prophet upto 100 hps protecting your strong dominion homelands. Take them into enemy dominion and your dragon will drop to barely over 100 hps, your prophet to as low as 8 hps. As far as combat is concerned they are both defensive units really.

It's unique summons that you should be looking at to make the best SC's.

[Gandalf Parker]

Lord of Night is a kickass assassin already (titan, stealth, flies, summons help, is assassin without needing a black heart, which means all slots are available, and a touch of magic) but its only available to Mictlan as far as I know. You might only need to make it available to more nations just to have abit of variation in what you are offering.

[HoneyBadger]

I should have mentioned that this mod would be intended more for the "long game" or atleast longer than the minimum, as the modified Pretenders may give an unfair advantage in a blitz-game.

I feel they could still be used-and will be balanced for use-in a blitz-game, but others' opinions may differ.

I have the disadvantage of assuming that others will think in the same directions I do, and I tend to focus on particulars without explaining the--to me--more obvious elements, so I appologise for that, and for any further confusion.

My point here is to potentially make your Pretender your "best SC" if someone should choose to do that as a strategy, while paying for it in other areas. And notice that I'm not suggesting adding a lot of buffs, mostly just things which will help the Pretender survive over a long duration.

Basically, it gives you the option of playing a "Roving Monster" strategy, where your nation is geared up to support 1 single out-of-the-box SC from the beginning of the game, and then using the profits from that strategy to "industrialize" the rest of your nation by mid-game, so that you are narrow but powerful in the early game but then have to focus on broadening your options by the end game. It makes for a risky strategy-especially against humans-but a decent and fun option, and I think a fitting strategy for Dom3.

I like the idea of being able to have your Pretender at the head of your army in more than just last-ditch defense efforts. I also like the idea of your Pretender being ready to go "out of the box" at a high price, but then becoming more marginalized as the game proceeds.

If someone wants to use their Pretender in a more active role, I think they should have the option to do so. That's not to say that I want to make them wildly powerful, there are ways in the game to do that already. It just at once makes your Pretender both the strength and weakness of your nation, which I feel can be quite thematic.

Primarily, I have to admit that I am concerned with the recovering from afflictions issue, but there are other things that can be tweaked, on an individual basis. I believe that most of the Pretenders in the game now were designed to be used in Dom1 or Dom2.

Some gentle, rational retrofitting should not only be expected, but desired, since it's obvious to everyone I've heard from that Dom2 and Dom3 are very different animals.

[HoneyBadger]

I really like the Lord of the Night, Gandalf, but I'm not sure he needs modification. I agree it would be nice to have him or something similar available to more nations.

Is Dagon a trampler? I can't check right now because I'm at work.

[Meglobob]

HoneyBadger said:
Is Dagon a trampler? I can't check right now because I'm at work.

Yes he is.

[HoneyBadger]

That's a nice trait for him to have. I'm thinking about giving him a weapon, a massive pillar of basalt which horror-marks whatever it hits, to play up on the Lovecraftian "feel".

[Taqwus]

Weapon + trampler + size 6 = weapon rarely used.