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Old October 14th, 2006, 02:37 PM
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Default Re: A long road

Quote:
Gloo said:
Hi to you all.
<snip> Accordingly, the values used in the game sould not be 23 (how the creator of this OoB got this number remains a complete mystery to me!) but 66 (33 hexes per turn while driving off road)! I know the weight of the vehicle should be a factor here but a M1 weighs 60t and a Leclerc 56t... .
What do you think?
I think you don't understand how the game is put together and perhaps you need to read some of the documentation we DO provide before offering criticism of other peoples work

From MOBHack HELP

MOVEMENT - SPEED OF UNITS

Ground Speed equation is: max km/h speed divided by 3 = SPEED in hexes.

a unit with 23 hex movement has a "real life" speed capability of approx 70kph

and to quote http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leclerc/

"The engine is fitted with a Suralmo-Hyperbar high pressure gas turbine. The engine provides a road speed over 70km/h and cross country speed up to 50km/h."

so this number in the OOB's is correct.......yes?

As to the FC and stabilizer and RF. There are no "real life" numbers that compare with this. They only exit in the game and they are usually determined by comparing similar units then making a judgement call as to how that unit fits in with it's contemporaries and IF you do compare the Lecrecs numbers with other MBT's you will find it is quite comparable with other MBT's. The Abrams SEP is an exception with 6 FC. Most Abrams that are the Leclercs contemporaries are 5 as are the Chally 2 and the Leo 2a5 or 2a6

As for " a small overview of the references and bibliography he worked with" THINK about that a minute then open up the game and look at all those nations and all the units in those nations and ask yourself would YOU provide "a small overview of the references and bibliography he worked with" for each one??

Don
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  #2  
Old October 15th, 2006, 10:01 AM

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Default Re: A long road

Quote:
I think you don't understand how the game is put together...
Hello to you either. I thank you for reminding me the reason why these questions came to my mind in the first place... . By the way, is this the only thing that comes to your mind when a newcomer asks a polite question: that's criticism?!

No, I don't understand how "some parts" of the game are put together and no, I haven't found answers to these very questions in the GG or the help files provided. Where, in this documentation, can be found data about the way the capacity of a vehicle to shoot accurately while moving is compared to it's off road speed? No, I don't criticize the work that has been done. I've done quite a lot myself, trying to collect data, documents, and modify the gameplay to suit my taste since my first box of SP1, more than ten years ago. On the other hand, I've always been told -and I agree with that statement- that positive criticism is a good way to make things move the right way: forward. Should every message posted here begin by: "What a great game; a great team" and finish with: "keep on the great job" ? I can do that -and that's only because I truly think both (the game and it's crew) deserve it- but if nothing else is *allowed* between these two sentences, what's the point? I know fora aren't supposed to be democratic places but are they supposed to be dictatorships?

Quote:
Ground Speed equation is: max km/h speed divided by 3 = SPEED in hexes. a unit with 23 hex movement has a "real life" speed capability of approx 70kph
Thanks again, to remind me that I wrote: "... the Speed value used by the game is fairly accurate (...) that's pretty correct...". What a pretty nasty kind of criticism, isn't it? Even though I realize I was using the wrong assumption that 1 game turn equals 150 to 180 seconds when it actually represents 60 seconds! That means that your M1 Abrams is riding off road at 36km/h and still able to fire accurately! Wov, I realize I was mistaken but it's far from what I was thinking... very far!!!

Quote:
The engine provides a road speed over 70km/h and cross country speed up to 50km/h." so this number in the OOB's is correct.......yes?
Talking about the off-road or max speed, yes that's almost correct (72 on road and >55 off road. Impossible to model ingame due to the way it's calculated, that would give 24 and 18 but the game uses 24 and 12; correct me if I'm wrong), and it's funny for that's exactly what I said in my original posting... even though I was mistaken! BUT you don't answer to what my question actually is. The M1 is rated 25 and the Leclerc 23 BUT the M1 CANNOT fire accurately while moving at a speed exceeding 15km/h off road (can he actually fire at all while running at 30/36km/h? I suppose the answer's yes but he sure CANNOT do that accurately, nor reload! Can the loader actually -and safely- handle those 105mm shells while running at 15km/h off road? That's a side question, but I guess it could be quite risky at times, depending on the nature of the terrain). A leclerc CAN actually fire accurately AND reload normally -and very quickly- while moving at a speed of 40km/h off-road (50km/h according to the GIAT data). Shouldn't this kind of facts be taken into account when it comes to model the off road speed limit, accuracy and RoF? Is there a way to model such behaviors and not only for these two MBTs? I bet the answer's there's no way to achieve such a modelisation by simply using MobHack. Do you think such variables could be implemented in the game code? Is it already there and I didn't notice? The data provided by the game shows a M1 firing (accurately?) and reloading while driven at full speed in cross country and that's weird imho. How can I use these data as a template for checking and eventually modifying those of the Leclerc, AMX30, T72 and so on?!

Quote:
As to the FC and stabilizer and RF. There are no "real life" numbers that compare with this...
I see. I guess there's no way to have any insight, or formula, on how these different parameters interact with each other. It would be useless, however, since it's hard coded and the code won't be released publicly this millennium. Is the old formula used in SP2: if Rng (greater or equal to) Acc then Prec= 25 + 24x(Wpn Acc-Rng)/Wpn Acc... and so on? Thanks for the answer, anyway.

Quote:
As for " a small overview of the references and bibliography he worked with" THINK about that a minute...
A final thank to you, for reminding me I'm a complete moron unable to think about anything else than criticizing someone else's work.

Quote:
...would YOU provide "a small overview of the references and bibliography he worked with" for each one??
If asked politely by a devoted fan? Yes, of course, why shouldn't I! Are those secret data? I know of many games manuals referencing their sources; that's a common way to act. No big deal here! But then again, a biblio "for each one", that's absolutely not what I asked for! However, you actually -even though partially- answered my demand, by quoting this web site at Army technology... therefore demonstrating my question wasn't that incongruous... . By the way this web site was already in my bookmarks but I thank you anyway. As a matter of fact, I myself could provide a complete list of every book or web site I usually refer to when in need of infos. I'm eager to share those with anyone asking for it.

As a final word I'd like to say that if you think that asking questions about the basic principles and mechanisms of this game is nothing more than criticism, then I don't understand why this forum is made for? Is this a place where zelators of the Camo Cult are allowed to post their eulogies and nothing more? If it's the way it's meant to be then that's sad news to me, indeed. Thanks for taking time to answer and good day to you all.
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