Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty

[Arker]

Graeme Dice said:
reases your income by 7%. Every point of turmoil decreases your income by 7%. This is a constant effect that depends solely on the current order/turmoil scale in a given province.

Thanks for the explanation. Trying to make sure I understand this correctly. Turmoil 2 causes income to drop 14% *every turn*? Not to a stable state 14% below what it would be otherwise? Is that what you're saying?

Every level of the death scale reduces population by 0.2% per turn. That province likely only started with a few hundred people.

That province started with several thousand actually (8k+, IIRC,) but it had a rather nasty event early on that knocked it down to about 1500. It was still going down 10 every turn two months after GoNB took effect. 320*.002=.64, it's a bit late for me to by doing math but that looks right? Rounded up to 1, I was still losing population an order of magnitude faster than that. I know at least one of those nasty globals Ermor had up increases turmoil, which now that I think about it had to be part of why my income was dropping so quickly. I don't remember anything in the game text about it increasing death as well, though, however it would certainly make sense for it to do that...

[Folket]

Did you not say that Ermor casted Burden of Time?

That is the source of your problems. Burden of time will kill all population quite quickly.

[Endoperez]

Folket said:
Did you not say that Ermor casted Burden of Time?

That is the source of your problems. Burden of time will kill all population quite quickly.

Good catch, Folket! It's probably a global of some kind that kills your population. Death scale has constant effect, but it's a slow process.

Arker - Turmoil has it's effect on constantly, and has the same effect on the same population whether it has affected that province for 1 turn or for 100.
Graeme Dice answered your question thinking of what would happen e.g. in your capital, where the scales work from the beginning. In there, the income is constantly lowered by 7% per Turmoil scale. However, your question was more in regards to conquered provinces where your dominion spreads - in those cases, the income drops from the 100% it starts from, goes down, and then stays constant.

As many people have said, any Turmoil is very, VERY bad - compared to Order 3! Of course, that's very bad. However, Death scale is compared to a neutral case, not to Growth 3. Most people who frequent these forums take Order 3 for all nations which need money, which only excludes Ashen Empire, Soul Gate and Carrion Woods. If you were to play in MP game against one of them, you'd lose because they'd have more money than you. In SP, it isn't that bad, because higher levels of AIs will have more money than you any way, and you'll have to rely on other things to destroy them. High-quality troops, perhaps better magical support, maybe assassinations or spies causing unrest, etc.

[Arker]

Yes, Ermor has Burden of Time and Foul Air up.

I have Gift of Health and Gift of Natures Bounty. Obviously my initial assumption that these would allow me to weather the effect of Ermors globals while letting them kill off the competition was incorrect. I shall have to go back to that game and get them dispelled as quickly as I can. I think I can get both of them dispelled in four turns or so from where I left off. Too tired now though, will try it tomorrow.

They really use Order 3 for everything? Interesting. I'm playing with the CB mod, does that effect it?

[Endoperez]

Arker said:
They really use Order 3 for everything? Interesting. I'm playing with the CB mod, does that effect it?

I'm not sure. I think the logic is that because Order 3 lowers the chance of events, Misfortune is a bit safer way to get more points - and as Luck is fickle any way, it's not worth spending precious points for it. As it happens, temples and labs being destroyed in the early game, as well as early floods, are common complaints...

I couldn't beat the skilled players with anything else than Order (or with the same designs!), but the other forums (Quarter to Three, the of the French forums) might use different strategies. I don't know because I don't read them, but I have a vague memory of some different strategies being mentioned...

[Graeme Dice]

Arker said:
Thanks for the explanation. Trying to make sure I understand this correctly. Turmoil 2 causes income to drop 14% *every turn*? Not to a stable state 14% below what it would be otherwise? Is that what you're saying?

Turmoil 2 provides an income that is 14% below a balanced scale, and 30% less than order 3. It doesn't have a cumulative effect, but the difference is enough that you won't be able to buy any troops with a turmoil scale due to upkeep.

I know at least one of those nasty globals Ermor had up increases turmoil, which now that I think about it had to be part of why my income was dropping so quickly. I don't remember anything in the game text about it increasing death as well, though, however it would certainly make sense for it to do that...

If Ermor cast Burden of Time, then populations worldwide drop incredibly quickly. That's the cause of your population loss, not the death scale.

[Graeme Dice]

Arker said:
They really use Order 3 for everything?

Yes. I never play with a turmoil scale unless the theme of the nation requires it, and I've only played a single game as T'ien C'hi Spring and Autumn.

[Agrajag]

One case where it is a good idea to get Turmoil is when playing AE or SG Ermor
Turmoil-3 Sloth-3 Cold-3 Death-3 Luck-3 Magic-3 is the only way I play either theme.
(And while the constant stream of militia/fanatics events are a nuisance, the stream of +X gold events makes up for it [not to mention the +gems events, which can be very good considering Ermor uses gems in stead of money])

[NTJedi]

Arker said:
I've avoided playing death scales in the past, except of course with Ermor, where it doesn't hurt. .....
I notice my income is sinking every round, and of course maintainence is not... so I'm hoping to see gift of natures bounty at least neutralise that effect, if not turn it around.

Remove Burden of Time first... this is one nasty spell. Gift of Health will help, but is no balance for the damage it's doing.

Arker said:
Also, sort of conceptually related, Ermor (of course) has a couple of very nasty globals up. The one that makes everyone age quickly, of course, and also the diseased air thing, so it's a double whammy.

....

And I'm a little worried that by the time I find Ermor they'll have gobbled up so many AI players I won't stand a chance against them... what do you think?

My guess is Ermor is being done by a human player OR you haven't patched the game. I rarely see Ermor cast Burden of Time with the recent patches. If Ermor is human then you have good reason to worry.

[Arker]

NTJedi said:
Remove Burden of Time first... this is one nasty spell. Gift of Health will help, but is no balance for the damage it's doing.

Yes, that's one thing I've learned. I was seriously underestimating the effect of Ermors globals. I still don't know if the gift spells would offset the death scale or not, and I'm not sure I'll even find out. I wound up making a new pretender based on some suggestions here and I'm liking him so much I don't feel like reviving the other game right now.

My guess is Ermor is being done by a human player OR you haven't patched the game. I rarely see Ermor cast Burden of Time with the recent patches. If Ermor is human then you have good reason to worry.

Nope, it's AI. With the latest patch and the CB mod. And Ermor almost always seems to cast that in my experience, except when they get taken out very early. In the past I scrambled to dispell it. Sometimes another AI dispelled it first. But this time I thought I'd let it kill the opposition while I countered it with Gifts instead... obviously I learned that's not the way to do it