Fighters are broken. Can we fix them?

[Alneyan]

I believe the problem isn't that PDC is too strong(*), but fighters are too weak, and, more specifically, have a very hard defence vs damage balance. Those fighters are also expensive (particularly to research to high levels), and logistics for are a nightmare. Since you must gather thousands of them in any serious battle, getting enough Fighter Bays to do that is going to be tough. They make a very nice defence taskforce when set at a wormhole ward, though.

* PDC has a mere 3.5 damage ratio (damage/kt), where most other weapons are around the 1.5/2 mark, and aren't restricted in their targetting. PDC cannot be mounted, unlike those other weapons, so a heavy-mounted APB XII deals exactly as much damage per kt as PDC, and is always useful. PDC does get a +70 bonus to targetting however, whereas a ship will standard training and components will only fire at 65% accuracy. I am assuming the fighters are in a fleet of their own (seems reasonable enough), but that they also have ECM III: that seems less likely, given how much research is needed for those things.

So yeah, PDC is very strong when you don't have anything else, but I think it is pretty much balanced in the middle game: it is better than the APB at taking down fighters, but it doesn't do anything against ships. Seems fair enough to me.

[Suicide Junkie]

The biggest factor that makes PDC way too strong is the autofiring.
Even if your fighters get the jump on the enemy, they will still get raped before they can start to fight back.


For good fighters, try Carrier Battles mod! (Humans only, see PBW for open games)

[narf poit chez BOOM]

That +70% PDC bonus stacks with the +65% CS, I think.

[bearclaw]

Dark Nova Mod takes these things into account as well. I've reduced the range of PDC as well as added several other options for PD weapons. Fighters have also been bolstered with more sizes, more mounts (including extended ranges) and additional things to boost their speeds.

In effect, there are trade-offs from the choice of PD weapons and choice of fighters. Seems to work pretty well.

And when I use fighters, I deploy them in as small stacks as possible. 20 groups of 5 will absorb much more PD fire than 5 groups of 20 as there are 20 targets rather than only 5 targets.

[Alneyan]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
That +70% PDC bonus stacks with the +65% CS, I think.

Yup it does, but anything over 99% isn't going to be helpful. Ships have a +55 bonus in training/components against Fighters (with best training and components), negated by the Fighters own defence bonus: +80, +70 or +60, depending on the hull used for the fighters.

[Iron Giant]

Imperator Fyron said:
Your preconceptions should not force me to be unable to manage fighter stacks in space. Further, I would be inclined to say that you are wrong simply because fighters can move through space within a system of their own power. They can definitely be "system conquering tools." Fighter management was simply coded poorly in SE4.

I really have to agree with Fyron. While I do appreciate the discussion about how to use fighters better, in the mid to late game they are useless. After all the work building, collecting and getting them together in a fleet, the enemy wipes out 1000 fighters with a small handful of capital ships like they are not even there. Total waste.

In a game like SEIV, I should be allowed to come up with my own tactics and carry them through the whole game. Something as big as fighters in the SciFi world should not be relagated to a minor role so quickly. I wouldn't want them to be the ONLY viable tactic, not by far, but now at best they play a minor role, and only that if you heavily micromanage them.

So, can those 2 things not be fixed in the current game?

The fact that fighters in a stack only can fire on one ship and damage flowing to multiple fighters in a stack? Can I get hard confirmation that those 2 things can not be fixed? I'll take the advice from others with a smile on my face, but after 5 years of playing this game, I doubt that I'll get any revelation that will lead me to believe that fighters are not broken with these 2 issues.

I really hope fighters are worth something in SEV....

[geoschmo]

Iron Giant said:
The fact that fighters in a stack only can fire on one ship and damage flowing to multiple fighters in a stack? Can I get hard confirmation that those 2 things can not be fixed? I'll take the advice from others with a smile on my face, but after 5 years of playing this game, I doubt that I'll get any revelation that will lead me to believe that fighters are not broken with these 2 issues.

The second issue is definetly hard coded and cannot be changed short of changing the code. The first I'm not sure. Is it possible to mod fighters and give them multiplex? Would that have any effect? If so, would that do what you want?

[Iron Giant]

Yes, multiplex on fighters would fix the stack issue. Too bad about the damage flow, but yea, that would help.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I think it would help, Al. 135% = 99%, 99%, 99%, 99%, 95%, 85%.

[Iron Giant]

While I hope for a fix to the first issue, lets talk about cost.

Small fighter - 100 minerals - 15 tons
Escort - 150 minerals - 100 tons
Large fighter - 300 minerals - 25 tons
Destroyer - 300 minerals - 300 tons

Whats up with that? Small fighters start out in the ball park, concidering they don't cost maintenance, but 300 minerals for a Large Fighter? After adding engines, life support, etc, the Large Fighter has barely enough space for a weapon, and only if you don't put a whole lot of anything else in it.

What would you rather have for 300 minerals, a DD or a Large Fighter? I'd call it DD any day.

Sure, I could change that to anything I want, but if I set it too low, it would be out and out cheating against the AI and where is the fun in that?

Does anyone else think this is a very steep cost?