Cross Link Scenarios: Timeline/Core army evolution

[Boonierat]

Listy said:
That's a troop? I'd hate to see what a squadron comprises of..

Of course we've almost certainly running into that age old problem of what I call a troop, isn't what you call a troop...

Well a Troop is the Cavalry equivalent of a Company, and a Squadron the equivalent of a Battalion, at least that's what it was in Vietnam

[Boonierat]

Pyros said:
I think we should exclude the AIR assets (as Core force; only available as AUX reinforcements) until the 2 or 3 ToO.
Now the big question is what we have available to use from the US OOB?

What are our possibilities?

Here is just a first quick proposal (to serve as a base for further discussions)

1 ToO: Ad Hoc ground troops (Troop D) outfitted with gunjeeps and upgunned 3/4 ton trucks
2 ToO: Off-map Divisional Artillery
3 ToO: Divisional Engineers
4, 5, 6 ToOs, any combination of White, Red, Blue
7 ToO: an additional Air Troop
8 ToO: an additional Air Troop (this way the core force will have the strength of a reinforced Air squadrom
9 ToO: Free use of Core force points for alternate history ToO.

What do you think?

cheers,

Well, I'm not sure we should include the ground troop, it will be ill-suited for most of the scenarios, but for the rest I agree, maybe we should start with the aero-rifle platoon (one platoon of infantry, 6 hueys and 2 escort gunships)? we might have problems towards the end of the campaign though, as an Air Cav Squadron is a powerful unit that includes like 27 Cobras, 27 Loaches, 18 hueys, thats a lot of units to move around...

[Listy]

On basic line troops.

There doesn't seem to be anything we could take.
My understanding is that the US Aircav forces had the following gear: 8 men (the load ability of an early huey) with M16's, one M60 and M79. there would have been some M1911 .45's as well.

Nothing in the list comes that close to the above.

Forces available.
1 ToO: 1x infantry troop, raising to a company or battalion in the later stages of this ToO. Of course aloft of the extra troops could conceivably be Aux units from the same battalion.

[Boonierat]

Maybe we shouldn't try to built the core force around actual TO&Es and real untis but let the player built whatever he wishes using Pyros idea of 1-turn missions. We could start with a single infantry platoon, then at the end of each ToO let him chose between several options like an additional infantry platoon, a 105mm battery, a 155mm battery, an Aerial Rocket battery, an aero-scout platoon, an engineer platoon etc....each time adding a platoon or equivalent to his core force so he would end up with roughly two companies, more would be too large to maneuver I think.

[Pyros]

This maybe the case after the 2-3 ToO and for just a couple of times, because IMO I fear that it will create very severe balance issues (?)
Anyway if we don't use Air transport as core force in the first two ToOs we may include in these ToOs a lot of chapters (mission types; maybe fictional?) with advanced design techniques as the ones some of you have mentioned in the mission types thread.
For instance the "crashed heli" or the "evacuation" type of scenarios/missions.
But after the second ToO we may (indeed) let the player choose between the same "type" of support core force units as "a 105mm battery, a 155mm battery, an Aerial Rocket battery".

But what should we use (from the stock US OOB) for the first 2 ToOs in order to exclude the ability to have air trasport as core force (in order to make use of the special scenarios)?
Would you like that we start with a special force platoon from the "Marines OOB" (defending the special forces base in the first ToO / at some point the 1stCAV/DIV will come to the rescue; 1-2 ToOs)...
Is is possible/logical to mix units between the two OOBs (US-Marines)?
Anyway what do you think of the following as possible infantry for the foot troopD selection(?)?

[Double_Deuce]

I think we can avoid the air trans being in many of the scenario's as Core Units if, we primarily use them to come in after the battle starts, say to evac or move units out of an LZ.

I mean, would they land them in a hot LZ (probably if needed BUT this would not be the primary way to do it). They would be inserted a little ways away and move in to the objective area to make contact on foot.

This set up can be used to justify the lack of helo's in the Core Force as the scenario's would start just after they have offloaded and set up and assembly area to move out from.

If the ground unit needed to move to an LZ to be extracted from, the helo's are added as Aux/Reinforcements.

[Pyros]

DD,

I agree with you, but the problem is the following:
What should we use as infantry platoons for the core force?

The stock OOB is providing us with a platoon(H)(scouts+Helos), some support helos (gunships) and some scout helos.

Concerning the Gunship and the Scout helos there isn't any actual problem (since they have 0 transport values); we may include them from ToO 2 or 3...

The problem (concerning gameplay issues) would be if we include Helos as transport for the core force in the first couple of ToOs. This is why, I think we may start our core force (all the rest will be AUX) with the mechanized infantry (troop type D?), then we may add a divisional attachment of enginners (ToO2?) and from that point we may decide (multiple choices method) the support elements of the core force that will be added in ToO 3,4 & 5.
We should also try to think which ToO (4-7) will be qualified as the one for the addition of the transportable elements of the Cav Div (troops+Helos platoon). From a given point the existence of a couple of platoon (H) won't matter since the missions will include enough AA cover for the NVA.
Also in the final couple of historical ToOs the battles will include a lot of units (huge scenarios/maps) and Air transportation will be included in the scenario analysis.

So, what should we use as the starting element of our core force?

cheers,

[Pyros]

Ok,
Here are some not "air-lifted" elements of the 1st CAV DIV:

1st Squadron, 9th Cavalry (Air)
11th Pathfinder Company (Provisional)
Company E, 52nd Infantry (Long Range Recon)
Company H, 75th Infantry (Ranger)
Division Support
1st Personnel Service Battalion
8th Engineer Battalion

To any of the above units we may add a CH-47 Chinook after the ToO3 (?)

So, in order to make some infantry vs infantry scenarios we may start (ToO 1 & 2) with a force consisting from Company E, 52nd Infantry (Long Range Recon) or Company H, 75th Infantry (Ranger) or 8th Engineer Battalion
Then at ToO3 we can add a CH-47 Chinook and give to these units the airmobility.

Another possibility would be to start with the classical composition of the D troops and making special scenarios buy "playing with the weight" of the transportable objective (very heavy to be transportable by the core Helos; need AUX reinforcement

BTW, I think this is our target core force (TroopD):

D. Troop makeup
1. Hq section
2. Aero Scout Platoon (War Wagons)
3. Aero Weapons Platoon (Crusaders)
4. Aero Lift Platoon (Longknives)
5. Aero Rifle Platoon (Doughboys)
6. Maintenance Platoon (Scavengers)

to the above we should add divisional attachments of any type.

Also take notice of the following:

D Troop, 3/5th Air Cavalry
Submitted by Don Armstrong

I. Introduction

The purpose, operation, mission, composition, and a typical day's operation of D troop 3/5 Cav.

II. Mission

To extend by aerial means the reconnaissance and security capabilities of the ground units. To engage in offensive defensive, or delaying actions within its capability and to seize and dominate lightly defended areas or terrain features. * (note: real mission was to search and destroy.)

III. Composition

A. TOE Authorized
1. 216 enlisted men
2. 14 officers
3. 36 warrant officers

B. TOE Actual
1. 221 enlisted
2. 18 officers
3. 29 warrant officers

C. Aircraft
1. 8 UH-1H lift ships
2. 10 OH6 scout ships
3. 9 AH-1G cobras

D. Troop makeup
1. Hq section
2. Aero Scout Platoon (War Wagons)
3. Aero Weapons Platoon (Crusaders)
4. Aero Lift Platoon (Longknives)
5. Aero Rifle Platoon (Doughboys)
6. Maintenance Platoon (Scavengers)

IV. Platoon Makeup & Tactics

1. Scout Platoon (Warwagons)

A. 2 Sections
(1) 2 teams each section
(2) 2 ships each team

B. OH6 Armament
(1) M60 on bunji cord-operated by door gunner
(2) 4000 rounds per minute mini gun operated by pilot
(3) 40 lbs of explosives
(a) frags
(b) CS gas
(c) smoke
(d) baby bombs-also known as W.W.A.S. (Warwagon air assault)
[1] 1 lb tnt 2 lbs C4
[2] 1 lb C4 a can of transmission fluid.

C. Tactics:

The scouts are given an area to work by the C & C (command and control) A/C. Only 1 team will work an area at any one time. They move into an area at tree top level and check any suspicious areas thoroughly. Some of the things the scout looks for are fresh trails, military clothing and equipment, fresh activity in abandoned areas and suspicious military age males. To help the scout to perform his mission of finding and killing VC, he uses a variety of armament which are utilized to blow bunkers, clear underbrush and kill VC. The lead scout is the one that does most of the work. The trail scout ship is closely behind the lead to give him cover at all times, and in case the lead is shot down the trail ship will be right there to pick up the downed crew. Some of the other function of the scout team was to screen for troops moving into an area, giving them constant air cover. Also, the scouts will pick out a suitable LZ for lift ships to insert troops.

2. Aero Weapons Platoon (Crusaders)

A. 2 sections
(1) 2 teams to each section
(2) 2 ships to each team

B. AH-1G armament
(1) 2-M59 Rocket Pods holding 19 rockets
(2) 2-M27 Rocket Pods holding 7 rockets
(3) 1 XM-28 turrent
(a) 1 mini gun- 1500 RPM, or 4,000 RPM
(b) 40 mm - 340 RPM
(c) or any combination of the above

C. Tactics
(1) The cobra is a vital part of the Aero weapons platoon. The aircraft commander is in charge of the aircraft and sits in the rear seat and controls the firing of the rockets. The gunner (also a lot) pilot control the firing of the turret and sits up front. He can also fly from the front seat to relieve the pilot.

(2) As with the scouts, the cobras only have 1 team on station at any one time (usually). The cobras cover the scouts in the A/O (area of operation) and usually orbit around them about 1200 feet. Anytime the scouts call "taking fire", the lead cobra automatically rolls in to cover the scouts exit out of the area. While the lead cobra is rolling in the gunner in the front seat is already putting down a heavy volume of mini gun fire into the area the scouts received fire. When the lead ship is in position he fires rockets into the area. Also at this time the trail cobra is putting rockets into the area to cover the leads break and to keep constant fire in the area. By the time the trail ship is ready to break the lead cobra has already gained altitude and is ready cover the trails break.

This cycle can continue until the cobras feel it's safe for the scouts to return or until the target is destroyed. Some of the other functions of the cobras is to cover the lift ships on insertions and extractions, and to destroy targets given to them by either the scouts or the ground troops. The cobras can provide close support to the ground commander.

3. Lift Platoon (Longknives)

A. UH-1H
2 sections with 7 ships for each section

B. Lift

UH-H (Huey) carries 2 M60 machine guns, troop capacity 8 U.S. or 10 ARVN

C. Tactics

The lift platoon uses 4 A/C to carry troops. They usually will fly a staggered formation or trail formation. The main purpose of the lift platoon is to insert and extract troops into the LZ. The lift ships are usually staged out of a staging area which is usually a base camp close to the AO. Another function of the lift ships is to be used as a medevac, or ash and trash missions.

4. The Aero Rifle Platoon (Doughboys)

A. 4 squads - 40 men (10 men each squad)

B. Armament
(1) 8 45 cal pistols
(2) 8 M-79's
(3) 32 M-16 rifles

C. Tactics

The Doughboys are equipped and trained to be ground pounders. Their main purpose is to give a ground reconnaissance of areas that the scout ships cannot check out by air. They are strictly a recon element. They are not a main fighting force and only about 32 soldiers are inserted at any one time. They can handle small numbers of VC. Anything of a larger size would have to be dealt with by a regular infantry company which would be brought in by an Assault Helicopter Company. Another function of the Doughboys (outside of details) is to secure any of our downed aircraft until it can be extracted.

5. Maintenance Platoon (Scavengers)

A. 4 sections and a platoon Hq
(1) A/C maint section
(a) Cobra maint team
(b) Huey maint team
(c) LOH maint team


(2) Allied Shops section
(a) engine shop
(b) prop and rotor shop
(c) sheet metal shop
(d) electrical shop
(e) avionics shop


(3) Armament Section
(a) Cobra armament
(b) LOH armament

(4) Tec supply section
PLL

B. Mission
To maintain and repair our A/C. 110 soldiers sometimes working 24 hours a day.

cheers,

p.s What is your opinion; SHOULD we start with "air-lifted troops from the beggining or should we add them in ToO2-3 ? (you must take into consideration that it would be nice to have some scenarios with only foot soldiers , this is the reason (designing issue) why I am not sure if it is wise to use from ToO1 the air-lifted troops.
This is also the reason why I suggested to use in ToO1 the special forces platoon to defend the "SP" Base (historically correct - ranger attachment (?)

What is your opinion?

[wulfir]

Pyros said:
What is your opinion?

One possibility could be to use, apart from the HQ, AUX units for the first few scenarios if the intention is to assume the role of an advisor or special forces group...???

However, I haven't quite got it straight yet if the core forces is meant to be drawn from the entire 1 Cav Div or a particular Bn within the division...?


An observation on helicopters I've made through PBEM is that they are highly popular with new players, particulary the Russian players , and while it's easy to clobber the AI with air assaults few seem to master the art against a human opponent - I have yet to see a successful helicopter air assault carried out against a human opponent. Seasoned PBEM gamers do not seem to favour the helicopter assault to the same degree...

For reasons of attraction to the campaign I don't think helicopters are a drawback (everyone loves the chopper, right!?), it's the Air Cav after all..., from a designing point of view though I'm in favour of a few "non-helicopter scenarios"...

[Pyros]

Ok then,
Here is a very early proposal to use as a base of further discussions:
(1 UH-1d Huey has lift capacity 12...)


ToO No1: 1x AirCav Pl(M):
4x Airmobile rifle
2x recoilles rifle
or
ToO No1: 1x Rifle Platoon:
Rifle squad
3xinfantry
1xInfAT
1xMachinegun

ToO No2: Choice 2xUH-1b gunship(or AirCav Spt (M)) & 2xOH-13 or 105mm platoon


ToO No3: additional 1x AirCav Pl(M):
4x Airmobile rifle
2x recoilles rifle
or
ToO No3: 1x Rifle Platoon:
Rifle squad
3xinfantry
1xInfAT
1xMachinegun

ToO No4: Choice 105mm platoon or 1x AirCav Lift (5x UH-1D Huey)

ToO No5: Choice 155mm platoon or Strike element & AirCav Spt(M)

ToO No6 ...
ToO No7...
etc...

p.s Up to ToO No3 we will provide airlift as aux and we may design specific missions.
p.s At ToO no4 the player may choose to add an Airlift platoon.
p.s By "choice" the player may select his next core force addition by the mechanism of the 1-turn scenario.
What do you think?