bitter pill to swallow - Page 2

Arryn · #11 July 22nd, 2004, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Immortal commanders are not supposed to.

Heh. "Not supposed to" and "never do" are not quite the same thing. Remind me to save a game file the next time it happens to me, so I can send it to IW for them to bugfix ... eventually.

Nagot Gick Fel · #12 July 22nd, 2004, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arryn:
According to the compendium of tips at Sunray's site, you're correct (and I'm wrong). Be that as it may, I've seen it happen, so there's a bug somewhere that can crop up.

It's not a bug. Unlike other commanders, immortals won't retreat when all their troops are killed, or once a leader is killed and they're part of a 'leaders only' army. They may still retreat when the battle Lasts long enough to reach the 'autorout' phase - a feature that's been implemented to prevent unending battles.

NTJedi · #13 July 22nd, 2004, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Merry Jolkar:
Bottom line, she was about to win the war, when she retreated.

More likely she was about to win this battle when she retreated. If your capital is completely surrounded by enemy controlled provinces... it's unlikely you are about to win a war. (possible but unlikely)

Arryn · #14 July 22nd, 2004, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
It's not a bug. Unlike other commanders, immortals won't retreat when all their troops are killed, or once a leader is killed and they're part of a 'leaders only' army. They may still retreat when the battle Lasts long enough to reach the 'autorout' phase - a feature that's been implemented to prevent unending battles.

You've assumed that the leader(s) I've seen retreat did so due to the 50/75 turn limit, and that I'm calling that a bug. Not so. I know about that rule (not that I agree with it, but that's been hashed out in many other threads as you know). I've never had any of my battles, in any game, Last more than 35 turns. I assumed that what I was seeing (the retreat) was either normal behavior (having forgotten about the tip text), or something else was going on that I wasn't aware of. This was 5-6 months ago when I was much less experienced, and trying out various nations and pretenders, and also when I wasn't in the habit of saving ALL my turns as I do now.

I think it has something to do with when the game computes dominion increase/decrease in the province, relative to when the battle takes place in the turn sequence. I've reported other problems in the past regarding when in the turn certain calculations are made.

I've seen a related thing happen when trying to exterminate an AI via dominion push. I see no enemy candles anywhere, I hold the enemy capital, and still the enemy god isn't permanently poofed.

Vynd · #15 July 22nd, 2004, 09:26 PM

The manual also specifies that immortal commanders do not retreat from battle when in friendly dominion. Even taking Arryn's comments into account, it seems like the most likely explanation for what happened to Merry Jolkar is that the turn limit hit. It sounds like the VQ was the attacker here. And 50 units killed sounds about right for 50 turns.

I've also run afoul of the problems inherent in trying to use a SC to defend a province with low PD. I would love to see that changed somehow, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

atul · #16 July 22nd, 2004, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vynd:
The manual also specifies that immortal commanders do not retreat from battle when in friendly dominion.

No. The manual specifies that immortal commanders won't retreat "just because everyone else has been slain" (chapter 6.6) if they're in friendly dominion. I'd read that so that immortal commanders may fail their morale checks when hit enough and therefore rout, at least I'd think that would've happened to me in a couple of occasions.

Cohen · #17 July 23rd, 2004, 12:13 AM

Once I had a non immortal SC retreating when the enemy was already routed.

Simply that winged virtuous girl flied in the front of an enemy soldier, who to make his way out to safety, swung his braod sword and hit my virtuous winged girl, making her fleeing much faster than him.

So there was that Last guy on the battlefield, even if he was routed many rounds before my SC, and they won!

Merry Jolkar · #18 July 23rd, 2004, 12:59 AM

I was definately in positive dominion (otherwise I would not have hurried back to defend!) It is still +6. I suppose I hit the 50 turn limit. It's unfortunate, because this was definately *NOT* and endless battle. I had just about wiped out the entire enemy army, and was super-buffed. I really think the rules for routing should take into account how well you are doing. I understand the need to end an endless battle, but if over the course of the battle one is winning, why end it??

rabelais · #19 July 24th, 2004, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:
Originally posted by Cheezeninja:
I thought immortal commanders were supposed to never retreat in positive dominion?

Where'd you get that silly idea? The only thing special about immortals in friendly dom is that if they die they pop back up the next turn in your capital, saving you many turns of having to pray for your god to resurrect (which is what happens if your immortal dies outside of friendly dom).

Hmmm. I had the same silly notion.

It certainly *used* to be true that immortals in positive dominion never retreat... has this been changed recently?

Rabe the Ringed

Cainehill · #20 July 24th, 2004, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rabelais:

quote:
Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:
Originally posted by Cheezeninja:
I thought immortal commanders were supposed to never retreat in positive dominion?

Where'd you get that silly idea? The only thing special about immortals in friendly dom is that if they die they pop back up the next turn in your capital, saving you many turns of having to pray for your god to resurrect (which is what happens if your immortal dies outside of friendly dom).
Hmmm. I had the same silly notion.

It certainly *used* to be true that immortals in positive dominion never retreat... has this been changed recently?

Immortal troops retreat like crazy - vampires spawned by VQs run like crazy. I didn't think immortal commanders did - at least, they definately didn't seem to, based on a couple of soul gate Ermor games I had.

And the pre-turn tip certainly says that immortal pretenders, at least, never retreat in friendly dominion, "Immortal gods never retreat when fighting in a friendly dominion."