Melee Power Rankings Chart

[PvK]

Wow, that's quite a table!

Originally posted by General Tacticus:
... Pythium's Emerald guard do better ! But they cost 25 gold, versus 10 for Ulm...

Ulm also has Guardians, which are home-province-only and as good or better than Emerald Guards, and cost 20 gold (but 35 resources).

As for Ulm one-handers being better with chainmail than plate (in some cases), that is because the plate drives their defense down, which can be quite good with chainmail. It then depends on how hard-hitting your opponent is, which also shows up in these tables. Ulm one-handers do a little better with plate than chain when all the units (including cavalry) are included.

A couple of things that surprised be a bit were how very low the Soulless were rated, and how much better the sword barbarians were rated than the maul barbarians.

PvK

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by PvK:
Wow, that's quite a table!

As for Ulm one-handers being better with chainmail than plate (in some cases), that is because the plate drives their defense down, which can be quite good with chainmail. It then depends on how hard-hitting your opponent is, which also shows up in these tables. Ulm one-handers do a little better with plate than chain when all the units (including cavalry) are included.

There's one more reason... encumbrance. Ulm 1-handed weapon Users have a tower shield that gives 2 extra encumbrance. With an encumbrance of 10, they start taking defense penalties after round 1, attack penalties after round 2, and don't Last very long before hostile attacks are mostly armor-piercing due to high fatigue. You can see this in the huge difference between Ulm's Deathmatch scores (the battles Last until a kill is made) and Gauntlet scores (the battles Last for about 40 rounds each).

And again, Ulm 2H weapon Users have such a low defense that it is irrelevant - everything hits. But Ulm 1H weapon Users, with the shield and chain, have a high enough defense that it is relevant... so going to full plate reduces the defense by an important amount.

-Cherry

P.S.

Originally posted by aldin:
Very kewl Cherry - 'course I'm playing Caelum right now and those weak birdies are mysteriously missing , but very kewl nonetheless!

~Aldin

Actually, I just added Caelum=) I'll run them tonight and post the results.

[ January 03, 2004, 00:28: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Saber Cherry]

OK, I updated the sim to be in accordance with everything Johan said. Remaining questions... and if you have some idea of the answer, even if you are not a dev, please respond!

*******************************************

1) How much flame damage is done by the Flambeau and other firey swords?

2) What is the probability of going berserk when damaged? Is it 50%, or 75%, or based on damage done, or based on berserker level?

3) How much fatigue damage is done by "paralyzing poison" (in blow darts, and poisoned claws)?

4) When you take fatigue damage above 200, how much health damage is done? I have it set at 1 health damage per 10 points of fatigue over 200 but that's a complete guess=)

-Cherry

[apoger]

>What is the probability of going berserk when damaged? Is it 50%, or 75%, or based on damage done, or based on berserker level?

Troops go beserk as soon as they take any damage.


>When you take fatigue damage above 200, how much health damage is done? I have it set at 1 health damage per 10 points of fatigue over 200 but that's a complete guess=)

Much faster. I'd say it's 1 damage per fatigue over 200.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by apoger:
>What is the probability of going berserk when damaged? Is it 50%, or 75%, or based on damage done, or based on berserker level?

Troops go beserk as soon as they take any damage.

Hmmm.... in my experience, they sometimes don't berserk. For example, Barbarian Chiefs seem to berserk about 75% of the time when wounded. But it could be a glitch.

[PvK]

Oh I just looked at Soulless attack skill... makes sense they did so poorly.

Are these all one-on-one duels with no repel stage?

PvK

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by PvK:
Oh I just looked at Soulless attack skill... makes sense they did so poorly.

Are these all one-on-one duels with no repel stage?

No, there are always repel attacks (if one unit has a longer weapon). Everything is one-on-one in the charts I listed. However, in Deathmatch mode, the battle ends when a unit dies, and in Gauntlet mode, the survivor keeps fighting a new unit over and over, in roughly 40 round blocks. You'll notice that soulless do MUCH better in Gauntlet mode, because they do not accumulate fatigue, so they eventually wear down a living unit until its attack and defense are also very low=)

The simulator supports Groups of units, by the way, I just did not use any. You can run "java Fight 28*Militia 2*Hydra", for example, to see if 28 militia will beat 2 hydras (they will). You can also include Groups of units in the Matrix mode.

With Groups, though, remember that the sim does not support spacing, so every unit is assumed to be in reach of every other unit, and a unit will just attack random units in the other group, with no preference for closeness or remaining hit points. The Dominions rule of 1 unit per weapon, including multi-hit weapons, is enforced. However, the rule of attacking only units in 1 square is not enforced, since there are no squares. Also, area of effect weapons (Wail, Fire Flare) currently affect only a single unit.

-Cherry

[Saber Cherry]

Power Rankings updated! Check the first (bottom) post in this topic. It now uses the Combat Sim v24.

Additional features: flaming weapons and berserking
Corrections: life steal
Additional units: Caelum, and lots of gods.

Matrix modes tested:

Gods
Cavalry (includes Jotuns and other large units)
Infantry (all infantry-ish units, and archers)
Extended Infantry (same units as infantry, but units are in multiples to reflect their price)
Full Matrix (all units)

-Cherry

[ January 03, 2004, 04:41: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Saxon]

Cherry,

A question for you. Is this just the pure melee results, with no spells included? I believe it is, which is why the mages get their butt kicked.

Thanks for the information, especially on MAR, who I am using with right now. Sorting out which are the stronger infantry is very helpful right now. I am in a great game and still very close at turn 50. The nice thing about this is I am using the high level spells because I need them, not because I have won the game and want to see what they do!

Thanks!

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Saxon:
Cherry,

A question for you. Is this just the pure melee results, with no spells included? I believe it is, which is why the mages get their butt kicked.

Thanks for the information, especially on MAR, who I am using with right now. Sorting out which are the stronger infantry is very helpful right now. I am in a great game and still very close at turn 50. The nice thing about this is I am using the high level spells because I need them, not because I have won the game and want to see what they do!

Thanks!

Yep, it is melee only. Mages don't cast, archers don't shoot, and as of now... tramplers don't trample. But some archers are quite effective in melee, and Marginon's crossbowmen are a good example. Best melee performance per resource for Marginon. Well, except for highly blessed flagellants, of course...

...and you're welcome! But remember the numbers are generalities, and in specific cases you would want to deviate. For example, pikemen or halberdiers are better against barbarians than either of the swordsmen are, despite their lower score. You can run a smaller, more customized matrix if you download the sim. And you can design flagellants with your custom blessing.

-Cherry

P.S. I just updated the "Gods" chart again - it is almost complete. Keep in mind that the titanoid, demihuman, undead and demonic gods get a lot better with equipment.

[ January 03, 2004, 08:24: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]