Neifel giants suck?

[geo981010]

Joonie73-
The NGs are not supposed to be uberunits by themselves - their big problem is the low attack so high defense units can stall them. But like Zen said - with a strength that high they just destroy HI that have lower defense values and depend on ~18-20 protection to save them. And the chill effect means that if a high defense unit can't hurt the NG quickly, they will likely get frozen which reduces defense, so now they will get hit - hard.

But the bless effects can correct their weakness, and Nature is my fav there for them too. The +3 beserk is probably better than the +4 armor from earth or +4 attack from fire - they get +3 armor, +3 attack (which means now they can hit most high defense units every couple of rounds!), and +3 strength and no chance of fleeing. Their defense is only fair to start off with and they are so big they will get ganged up on, so the -3 defense is little loss IMHO. And 10 HP+ regen and high armor means that without high damage units around, they will win against most opponents with little loss.

Keir-
For a fun dual bless choice, have you tried a Baphomant with Marignon yet? Cheapest dual 9 magic pretender there is (I think - only 468 points), and twisted fate flaming attack flagellants are a whole lotta fun It's good being the Astral King, too! Too bad no one else gets to choose him as a pretender...

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by geo981010:

Keir-
For a fun dual bless choice, have you tried a Baphomant with Marignon yet? Cheapest dual 9 magic pretender there is (I think - only 468 points), and twisted fate flaming attack flagellants are a whole lotta fun It's good being the Astral King, too!

Marignon has always been a favourite of mine and Baphomet is certainly interesting now.

To be honest I had a few dissapointments when I tried out a race shortly after getting the full game. My race theme was "In you we trust" with Paladins running around questing. Unfortunately they kept dying to lucky blows (or Xbows) after having already used up the twist of fate. ToF works best with decent numbers of sacred troops with very high def as Paladins defence gets overwhelmed and they have to rely on their Prot which isn't quite high enough. The most successful Paladin I recall (Heroic ability Quickness) lost his arm to an archer (the shame of it!) while finishing off a battle and was quickly butchered. Low HP supercombatents don't seem to work very well.

I have been intending to have another try in which each questing Knight is accompanied by a small band of Zealots, who wish nothing more than to die in battle fighting beside their chosen hero, and a couple of Men at Arms to attract Xbow bolts. At present however I'm distracted by the tricky Tuatha and the intricacies of Mictlan.

I suspect it will take me awhile to get a setup I like with Marignon as I don't like depending on the throw away Flagellents - in general I don't like losing my troops. The trouble with using the Paladins is that the need for decent productivity really puts the squeeze on points. In search of more points I tried the Lady of Fortune water9, nature 4 and Turmoil3/luck3 and retitled the race "In Fortune we trust" but it wasn't a great success.

I have a nasty suspician that the best pretender for using Paladins with might be the Earth Mother (earth9, nature6-9) which is too inappropriate for me.

It's good being the Astral King, too!

I thought they had made immobile pretenders truly immobile? I may well have misunderstood and being Astral King with Marignon would be very reassuring. If you are indeed right then Baphomet is significantly better than I had thought.

Re Niefel Giants:

I wouldn't underestimate the value of the reinvigoration effect of earth magic. I have also found that its hard to get too much prot. Often in the early game when my Niefel Giants came up against things that could kill them they died in moments (lack of support) and so the regeneration is perhaps not as important as berserk which is, as you point out Geo, very important - although it only
gave +2 prot in the examples I remember checking for Niefel Giants. Prot bonus from berserk seem to vary alot depending on starting prot so I suspect its a percentage adjustment and the difference could be what cold scale the Niefels are in - or I could just be completely confused. The reduction in the amount of battle afflictions from regeneration is pretty key in the long term and in a mid-game big battle the regaining of HP's can be huge.

I have tried Son of Niefel with water 9, Earth 9 and it seemed to be very smooth early as the enemy get broken quicker. However it was only one test and though thematically appealing it just doesn't seem as tight as the Earth Mother approach - stay alive and freeze them.

Good to hear of anothers experiances with a dual bless race.

Cheers

Keir

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
Re Niefel Giants:

I wouldn't underestimate the value of the reinvigoration effect of earth magic.

I've wondered how much use earth 10 could be with pythium's mages, as a reinvigoration of 5 on every mage and communicant might be useful, although not in the early game.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by geo981010:
For a fun dual bless choice, have you tried a Baphomant with Marignon yet? Cheapest dual 9 magic pretender there is (I think - only 468 points), and twisted fate flaming attack flagellants are a whole lotta fun It's good being the Astral King, too! Too bad no one else gets to choose him as a pretender...

It's cheaper to get 2 maxed blessings with an immobile pretender, but is it really worth it? One of the advantages is having a Pretender who's tough, but this is little good if you're confined to your capitol (IIRC teleporting Immobile Pretenders is considered a bug). It's no fun being the Astral King if you can't lay down the law!

Still, there's definitely something to be said for playing a Disembodied Flaming Head...

I don't generally much care for Twist Fate as much as most of the other abilities, but it would be pretty good with Flagellents. Stacking it with Ethereal and Luck on Chalice Knights probably wouldn't be bad either.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
It's cheaper to get 2 maxed blessings with an immobile pretender, but is it really worth it?

Generally not I guess - although the research value can be important and sometimes its the only pretender you can afford to get the effects you want to make the race design work. My best efforts with Mictlan so far come from using the Fountain of Blood with blood5, water9. The added bonus here is that I intend lowering the tax rate in time and doing a little blood hunting at home. Still far from getting the details sorted but I'm hoping the Fountain of Blood is still a viable option.

Cheers

Keir

[Jasper]

I haven't tried it yet, but the Smoking Mirror looks interesting to me for Mictlan. Perhaps 4 in Fire, Death, Blood, and Water.

+2 Attack, Defense, Strength, and Fear seems decent on their quite cheap sacred troops. I espeically like the Eagle warriors.

Their sacred troops are so cheap however that I'm not sure you can get much out of concentrating on them.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
I haven't tried it yet, but the Smoking Mirror looks interesting to me for Mictlan. Perhaps 4 in Fire, Death, Blood, and Water.

+2 Attack, Defense, Strength, and Fear seems decent on their quite cheap sacred troops. I espeically like the Eagle warriors.

Their sacred troops are so cheap however that I'm not sure you can get much out of concentrating on them.

I tried Smoking Mirror first up without good results.

The decisive question for me with Mictlan is what do you use as the basis for your army? The slingers are, in my experiance, more danger to your own troops than the enemy and most of the infantry is simply not up to the job. The only thing I have found that has real shown promise early is the Warriors of the Sun who work well with the extra +2 strength, quickness and +4 def from the Fountain of Blood (blood5 water9). However I have along way to go before I'm comfortable with playing Mictlan.

The Eagle Warriors look very cute and might work well later but as yet I haven't got them to work early.

cheers

Keir

[Nerfix]

It's all about Warriors with javelins.

Mictian is very cool and very frustrating. Especially the blood sacrifice need. And the Mercenary "Costs Double for you" situations.

Their base units (the standard bearer, warriors with slings and javs) are pitifully weak and get mowed down easily.

As a game progresses it gets harder and harder to put your sacred troops up to the front line of battle since they are capital only.

That's the only deal I have found with fighting MP with Mic.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Zen:
Mictian is very cool and very frustrating.
[. . .]
As a game progresses it gets harder and harder to put your sacred troops up to the front line of battle since they are capital only.

I have always wanted to be able to use Spine Devils and other low level blood summons effectively and this is what I'm trying to do with Mictlan. Trouble I'm finding is the expense of the 2 blood mages undermines their value as Spine Devil summoners.

The only thing I'm researching early is construction for blood raising magc items (allows me to summon with blood1 priests) and sanguine dousing rods. Hopefully, if I can get the start right, I'll be able to get enough Spine devils to form the nucleus of an anti-player army.

Cheers

Keir