Supercombattant pretenders....what about...

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by MStavros:
Wendigo, the spell AI is good,

Fine. Having a good spell AI is important.

but the strategic AI is very weak, thus you can massacre whole AI armies with your pretender SC in the early game, and that is very unbalanced.

A good strategic AI is extremely difficult to implement, and it's NOT that important. If you're concerned about it, then I assume you're primarily an SP player, right? Then there's something illogical in your rant: if you think the AI can't handle your SC pretender, why do you play a SC at all? If you absolutely want to play an SC pretender, why don't you script the AI to make him more challenging? Eg, try adding the following line in your map files:

#scale_chaos 0 -3
#scale_lazy 0 -3
#scale_cold 0 -3
#scale_death 0 -3
#scale_unluck 0 -3
#scale_unmagic 0 -1
#dominionstr 0 10
#god 0 "Bog Mummy"
#xp 500
#mag_fire 10
#mag_air 10
#mag_water 10
#mag_earth 10
#mag_astral 10
#mag_death 10
#mag_nature 10
#mag_blood 10
#additem "Blood Thorn"
#additem "Charcoal Shield"
#additem "Starshine Skullcap"
#additem "Chain mail of Displacement"
#additem "Boots of Quickness"
#additem "Amulet of Antimagic"
#additem "Ring of Tamed Lightning"

That's what I used in Doms 1 for an Abysian AI when I wanted a challenge. Copy/paste and replace the '0' by the nation number if you want several tough AIs like this one. And if you find that's not enough, give a preset starting place to your AIs, and add things in that province. Eg, (assuming the Abysia AI starts in province 42):

#specstart 0 42
#setland 42
#population 100000
#knownfeature "Summoning Circle"
#knownfeature "The Mountain of Power"
#commander "Doom Horror"
#comname "Gog"
#xp 500
#mag_water 5
#mag_astral 15
#mag_death 10
#additem "Amulet of Antimagic"
#additem "Ring of Regeneration"
#commander "Doom Horror"
#comname "Magog"
#xp 500
#mag_water 5
#mag_astral 15
#mag_death 10
#additem "Amulet of Antimagic"
#additem "Ring of Regeneration"

There's nothing like a Doom Horror with fear +30, Quickness, Astral Shield and Soul Vortex to make your day!

[mr.white]

my very first game I used an earth mother. She Lasted about 3 battles until she found machaka and got blinded by a witch-doctor. Sigh.

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by MStavros:
What about do not allow the Pretenders to leave their home province?
That would be the best. Why?

1. Supercombattant Pretenders can be abused easily.
2. The AI won't make stupid things, like moving with his pretender from province to province ALONE. The AI is always loosing his pretender very fast. I don't understand that what is the AI is doing with his pretender anyways...IT is always moving it..

So this way both problems would be solved.

Actually you've got some points.
The idea is good, but I doubt that it will happen.

I say, let IW to update the AI, there is a thread about the weaknesses of the strategic AI.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=74;t=000191

If those things will be fixed, we are all good.

This is a minor thing. If you don't want to abuse the AI, don't build a pretender SC.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by MStavros:
A good strategic AI is extremely difficult to implement, and it's NOT that important. If you're concerned about it, then I assume you're primarily an SP player, right? Then there's something illogical in your rant: if you think the AI can't handle your SC pretender, why do you play a SC at all? If you absolutely want to play an SC pretender, why don't you script the AI to make him more challenging? Eg, try adding the following line in your map files:

I did much the same with my random generators. I tended to scatter the map with structures (castles, labs, temples), give AIs multiple starting sites, and give every province a randomly selected "commander" with bodyguards and random magic items. A very insane game.

Some of the most disastrous combinations of late-summons creatures or even pretenders showed up as the AIs prophets and extra units.

If I got to know the map too well I just re-ran the script and re-scattered everything.

[Particle]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
A good strategic AI is extremely difficult to implement, and it's NOT that important.

Actually it is VERY important. You are saying this, because you are using Dominions II. for multiplayer. This was a selfish comment Nagot.

[ November 02, 2003, 17:16: Message edited by: Particle ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Particle:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
A good strategic AI is extremely difficult to implement, and it's NOT that important.

Actually it is VERY important.

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Nope, it's not - because there are easy and effective workarounds for single player. I provided two, but it seems you forgot to read them.

[MythicalMino]

my question concerning the strategic AI is this: If it is indeed as weak as ppl are claiming it is, then what happened between Dominions 1 and dominions 2? Granted the AI in Dom1 wasn't the "end all, be all" of AI, but it was decent enough, hell, it can still give me a very big run for my money....so, what happened between the 2 games?

Something had to have happened during the final stages of development, where the beta testers couldn't have caught it. If they were saying that the ai was great, but now, completely new guys are stomping it, then something had to happen towards the end, right?

It either has to be something to do with a late-stage development code change or data change somewhere....or, the ppl that are saying that they can wipe the virtual floor with the AI are either lying about it (NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE IS LYING, THIS IS JUST A POSSIBLE OPTION!!!!!!!!)....or, they are setting the game up strange or something along those lines....

Now, if it is indeed something went wrong in the late stages of development, then possibly IW will be able to find it easy enough....and fix it of course....

[LordArioch]

I think the people finding it easy are making rampaging supercombat pretenders. That's like being amazed the dom1 ai was easy when you played as caelum and air elementaled it to death.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by mr.white:
my very first game I used an earth mother. She Lasted about 3 battles until she found machaka and got blinded by a witch-doctor. Sigh.

That was one lucky witchdoctor to get through a pretender's MR (unless it was in a seriously hostile dominion). If he was going to be that lucky, he should have been casting Seven Year Fever - or maybe Blindness is better against something with that many HP? Can diseased units still regenerate?

In any case, Curse has no defense and is always nasty; Blindness, Seven Year Fever and Soul Slay are all serious setbacks if they get through MR (and there is always some chance). Life drain won't help against any of those.

And of course the old Favorites, Black Bow of Botulf and Ethereal Crossbow; they now have a new friend, Vision's Foe. (RoF one per 3 rounds, but if it hits it is armor negating and automatically causes an eye loss with each hit - I saw no mention of an MR save. Air 1 Death 1 Cons 4 IIRC.) Eye Shields, Totem Shields, Knife of the Damned (I think this causes curse even if it fails to damage, but not sure), Heart Finder Sword and Shields of the Accursed still work well too. These are all non-artifacts that can be forged for reasonable cost.

Although Elemental Hauberk provides 100% resistance to fire, frost and lightning cheaply and easily (IW: if you're reading this, make that 50% resistance to fire, frost and lightning. No non-artifact should have 3 permanent immunities.), you still have to devote a separate item slot to poison or take your chances with Bog Beasts, Hydras, Poison Cloud, Snake Bladder Sticks and the new Serpent Kris. Regeneration and life drain will help offset poison - unless you're also cursed, in which case the poison is very likely to cause afflictions even if it doesn't kill you.

Anything can be seriously weakened by afflictions. Generally, things that aren't too badly bothered by blindness will be rendered useless by feeblemind and vice versa. The Void Lord might be an exception - feeblemind would be inconvenient but not necessarily incapacitating - but he can still be crippled, weakened, chest wounded, and possibly lose an arm.

Even if the enemy is Arco or can cast Gift of Health, afflicting a SC takes it out of action for a while. Curse and horror mark are gifts that keep on giving.

[-Storm-]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Particle:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
A good strategic AI is extremely difficult to implement, and it's NOT that important.

Actually it is VERY important.

---

Nope, it's not - because there are easy and effective workarounds for single player. I provided two, but it seems you forgot to read them.

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Nagot, you are wrong. The overall quality of the strategic AI is very important, regardless of your suggestion. Don't forget that the SP part is now very important, since we have a huge SP playerbase in Dominions II. Yes Doms I. was different, but things have been changed, thanks to Shrapnel.
IW want to make money, and at least half of the players who will buy Dominions II. will prefer SP. [I think that even lot more.]
So IW must do their best with the SP part as well, regardless of your opinion. You are living in the past. This is not Dominions I.

[ November 02, 2003, 22:36: Message edited by: -Storm- ]