Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?

[Puke]

Argh! Puke SMASH!!

okay, hold on tight here, but when i was 'fixing' mine layers, sats, and fighter bays, i noticed that not only were the silly littel per game turn limits put on, but level 3 fighter bays which used to launch 2 fighters per combat turn, now (wait for it.. wait for it..) only launch one!

now, i can see some arguements both for and against this. either way though, its a fairly major component change and it would have been nice to have some sort of notice for it.

on the whole though, this has been a great patch. dont get me wrong, MM has been doing a superb job overall. and things like this.. well, things like this probably help to bolster the Mod'er community

[Daynarr]

quote:

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okay, hold on tight here, but when i was 'fixing' mine layers, sats, and fighter bays, i noticed that not only were the silly littel per game turn limits put on, but level 3 fighter bays which used to launch 2 fighters per combat turn, now (wait for it.. wait for it..) only launch one!

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Well, didn't look at .txt files for that one, but in the Version history file for latest patch that was mentioned.

quote:

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on the whole though, this has been a great patch. dont get me wrong, MM has been doing a superb job overall. and things like this.. well, things like this probably help to bolster the Mod'er community

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LMAO.

On the side note, when you deploy units in combat, all the units deployed RETURN to their carrier after combat.
However, I haven't tried that on mines, just satellites.

[Trachmyr]

Another possible solution to balancing mines is to see how many mines detect the enemy vessels... based upon Ship size, number in fleet (&sensors/ecm/cloak). Thus only a % of mines will "engage" the ship/fleet... they will attack untill enemy is deystroyed... and you won't know if the field is completely clean.

Trachmyr

[Puke]

yes, it does seem that I didnt pay enough attention to the Version history..

as for the percent of mines engaging based on size and cloak, thats awesome. It would also mean that you could put things like sensors on mines, and actual mine 'design' would not be quite as rhetorical as it is now.

[Puke]

on how mines are triggered, the general concencus that i have read on the board, and what i have seen with smaller fleets, has been that when a field is triggered, mines attack one ship till it dies, then go for another.

mostly people complain about this, but I dont mind too much really. the odd thing is, that i just plowed a fleet of dreadnaughts through a hostile warp point (okay, it wasn't to bright of me). six bought the farm, and about 7 others were damaged rather heavily. the fact that some were damaged without being destroyed makes me wonder if something changed in the new Version, or if we have had a major missconception about whats going on. or if i have been missunderstanding the entire discussion.

[Instar]

Well, if you want to put mines down, you'll have to put more mine layers on your ship. (Again, the tradeoff, more layers, or more cargo?)
However, I think that the layers should be able to launch more than 1 a turn. Thats silly.

[Noble713]

I'm pretty sure mines pick random ships to damage, as I have had a bunch of smashed up ships sitting on a warp point waiting for repair far too often.

[Barnacle Bill]

A mine in space would not work like an old-fashioned naval mine, exploding when something hit it. Space being vast, the chances that something will run over your mine is remote. Even with a proximity fuse, the warhead would have to be huge to cause any damage at all. So, for mines to be realistic in space, they would have to be one of two things:

1) A stealthed seeker that waited to activate until it detected a target in range. Some modern naval mines are this already.

2) A disposable (bomb-pumped) one shot non-seeking weapon that fired at the first target which came in range (or perhaps held fire once the target is in range until the range to target starts increasing).

In scenario 1, point defense would work and you'd need a bunch of them to be effective (enough to saturate PD).

In scenario 2, you could postulate that the bomb-pumping the weapon makes it more powerful than even massive base-mounted weapons. You'd avoid having to play out the interaction with PD. However, it could still miss and the target's ECM would help it miss (you'd need to add combat sensors in your mine design).

In either scenario, you'd have the possibility of ships coming through the sector without getting within range. Again, space being vast, the chance of a ship coming within range of even one mine as it passed through the minefield sector would be remote. The only way to deal with that is to make mines a warp point-only weapon which attacks only enemy ships using the warp point (either direction). Then you can postulate the mines are all set up within range of the warp point. Note that this does not save the concept of a simple explosive mine. If they were all close enough to the warp point to damage something coming through, the first mine that went off would either detonate or destroy all the rest. They'd all have to go off together, probably over-killing the first target and letting the rest of the enemy fleet come through unharmed.

Using the warp point-only idea in combination with scenario #2 would make mines work more or less like they do now, in warp point sectors. However, you'd still need to address the interaction between the mine's fire control system (scanners, combat sensors, etc..) and the target's passive defenses (ECM, cloak, etc...). Cloaked ships that could not be detected by the systems installed in the mines would simply not set off any mines.

So, what is mine sweeping in that case? Probably some sort of very short-ranged decoy that goes through the warp point first to set off the mines.

[Daynarr]

Here is a (large) quote I found in one of the Star Trek sites:

quote:

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The antimatter mine is a simple, no-frills weapon designed to be used in large numbers in order to restrict or deny an area of space to enemy forces. The simplest form of mine is the command model; this consists of a matter and antimatter charge held suspended in containment fields within a small case which also holds a communications mechanism. This type of mine would be deployed within the scan radius of a controlling vessel; the ship then monitors the area for the approach of enemy vessels, detonating a mine by remote control when an enemy vessel approached it. If a long duration minefield is required a sensor drone can take the place of the ship. The Enterprise-D used such a minefield to force the surrender of a Cardassian fleet in the McAllister Nebula in 2369.
More complex and effective mines are each fitted with their own sensor system. Although this makes the mines slightly more difficult to construct, such a minefield is not dependant on a single drone to run it and is hence more resistant to countermeasures.
The better mines are essentially tiny drone spacecraft, fitted with their own independent sensors and drive system, controlled by an artificial intelligence computer. The Federation Type 16 mine is an example of this type - it constantly surveys space around it to a radius of five light seconds, analysing anything which enters this zone and comparing it to a pre-programmed file of enemy vessel types. The entire minefield can be networked together, allowing them to share sensor information between them. If an enemy target enters the field the mines will determine which one has the best possible intercept solution; this mine will activate its micro impulse drive at the appropriate moment and track in on the target, detonating its warhead at the moment of closest approach. The Type 19 mine operates in a similar manner but the mines are fitted with a small warp engine to allow them to engage targets using warp drive. At this level the mine is essentially a photon torpedo capable of lying dormant for long periods.

The most recent development in Federation mine technology is the Type 21 mine developed by an engineering team on Deep Space Nine under Chief Miles O'Brien. At one metre in diameter this is one of the smallest mines in use by the Federation. It contains a photonic charge equal to several hundred grenades rather than a matter/antimatter charge, along with a micro impulse system and sensor system capable of scanning out to a radius of two thousand kilometres. This very limited range and destructive capability is more than offset by the use of both a cloaking device and a replicator system on the mines; when a target is detected the mines calculate the number required to destroy it, and allocate that number to the task. Once the target is destroyed the mines in that area latch onto the wreckage of both mines and target and use it in their on-board replicators to construct new mines. This allows the field to actually increase in size and density substantially whenever a target is attacked. This type of minefield is exceptionally difficult to clear; the use of a cloaking system on the mines means that an enemy can never be sure that every mine has been destroyed in a weapons barrage. Should only a handful survive to destroy another target, hundreds or even thousands more mines are quickly replicated and the field can be back up to full strength within hours. Such a minefield was deployed at the Bajoran Wormhole to block access by Dominion forces, triggering the Federation-Dominion war. The Dominion forces which captured DS9 at the outbreak of the war struggled several months to disable the minefield without success.

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[Seawolf]

Bill,

1 other idea which I think is what happens here, Each "mine" actually represents a minefield that has been laid down. Additional "mines" make the field bigger to catch more ships.

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Seawolf on the prowl