OT: Galactic sterilisation

[JurijD]

Originally posted by oleg:
Even if these calculationa are correct, you underestimate the effect of 100 LY. Simple calculation reveals 10^30 attenuation factor. At worst it will be like radiation 1000 km away from the bomb. Extensive hydrogen bomb tests in 50s and 60s proved that there is nothing to fear

Besides, the time duration odf star collapes is surely much longer than H-bomb explosion and the _intensity_ of the radiation will be very small indeed.

You are so wrong Oleg... As I said they calculated that the intensity of the radiation over a couple hundred light years will be enough to kill us. I didn't underestimate the distances and neither did they. You on the other hand seem to have underestimated the ammount of gamma radiation that is released when all the outer material of a star if transormed into pure energy...

And u obviously didn't do those simple calculations you mentioned either. Lets assume this:

1. at a distance of 10km from the center of an explosion of an H-bomb the radiation IS LETHAL (we can all agree to that).

2. Lets say that the density of radiation comming from that H-bomb explosion at 10km distance is J1 = P/S1 (J1 being the density, S1 the surface area of a sphere at 1km and P the power output of the bomb)

3. At a distance of 100 Light years from the H-bomb the Density of radiation would therefore be J2=P/S2 where S2 is the surface of the radiation sphere at (9,4608*10^14 km = 100 light years)

As J2*S2=J1*S1, J2=J1*S1/S2, J2=J1*R1^2/R2^2
R1=10km
R2=9,4608*10^14 km

J2 is about 10^28th smaller than J1. that means that if we had an explosion 10^27 biggeer than that H-bomb we postulated could kill us at 10km, our dosage at 100 light years would be something like 10% of the dosage we get standing 10km from an H-bomb explosion.

To put it another way... if a back hole goes off somewhere in the distance of 100 light years we get the same ammout of radiation as if we were standing 30km from the center of a H-bomb explosion. (do the math yourself if you want).

And we musn't forget that these explosions don't stop in a few hours or days but can Last up to several decades or even more... The cumulative effect of that kind of radiation on the biosphere over so long would be devastating to say the least. And I was calculating for 100 light years... the systems at less than 50 or so would get totally fried anyway.

[JurijD]

Originally posted by Sinapus:
So we should give France back to the Germans with profuse apologies and reparations for that day/night strategic bombing campaign?

I mean they were rude to use an army to take it over, but to your logic we had no right to use an army to take it back and instead should have "committed to peace" and simply used stern language to reprove Hitler for his deeds...

No France belongs to the French ... but an appology for the hundreds of thousands of women and children that were killed by the fire bombs in Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin etc. would be appropriate much the same way as the german administration apologized for bombing London and killing all those civilians.

But you prolly didn't learn about this side of teh conflict Sinapus... In war there are no bad guys and good guys, there are only soldiers each fighting for what they thing is a just cause... and whoever wins gets to decide who's cause was realy just.

[JurijD]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
JurijD... the loss of life in this war is nothing compared to the amount of blood on Saddam's hands, or to the amount of blood that would have been added in the future. Stern words with Saddam have failed for 8 years. Stern words with Hitler failed. Appeasement to tyrants is proven to be a BAD (strike that, horrendous) idea, by the events leading up to WWII and the war itself. We should learn from history so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Regardless of whether the war was "right" or not, you can not argue with the fact that with Saddam out of power, Iraq will become a better place. War is sometimes a necessary evil so that greater peace may be possible. You also can not argue with the fact that every nation that the US has knocked down and then rebuilt has become a rather successful, peaceful nation. Japan? Germany? Our worst enemies in WWII, yet allies and trading partners nowadays? It is only when nations are "rebuilt" by the UN that they have failed (not in all cases, but in some). Or when the Soviets or European colonial powers got involved... East Germany? Nearly every nation in Africa? Many in southern Asia? India? Well, India is (slowly) progressing, but it is still on the whole a very impoverished nation. Now, why does the US do this? Is it because we are nice and want to help people? Probably not. More likely it is because it is more profitable (and much safer) to build them up as friends and trade with them than it is to subjugate them. I'll take US imperialism over European imperialism any day. Iraq will (hopefully) be no exception.

1. No country has the right to attack another if not for self-defence(Read up on your international law).

2.The US has SCREWED up every country it ever tried to "build-up". Germany succeded because the Germans knew what needed to be done and didn't need the Americans to tell them anything. Same story with Japan. Now lets take a look at Liberia ... or maybe Sout America? How many government cues did the CIA start down there?? I lost count at 5 or 6. Argentina, Columbia, Salvador... it goes on and on.

3. The US killed off almost every other living being on their continent except the english speaking settlers... At least in Europe we were able to preserve our differences and keep peace for the greater proportion of history. Sure there were wars but only because people like the original american settlers wanted to wipe everyone else out but themselves... BUT they all failed and now we have a culturaly diverse Europe that is peaceful.... Which is more than your people were able to do... just look at your cities for gods sake... you people are divided into regions based on your skin color... come to Paris or Berlin and we'll give you Equality.

"All men are created equal..." yeah right tell that to all the native americans and black slaves you imported to your country.

And at a time when the world was going through a revolution in science and art your people actually brought back slavery and build up your country on that. Mucho gracias...

4. You people are so paranoid that Bush actually managed to persuade you that attacking Iraq is imperative. And now... your administration is begging for European countries to bring in troops of their own to help bare the costs of your GRAND PLANs not working out... The Iraquis would kick you out ina second if they could.

In conclusion:
1. The War in Iraq was WRONG it was the most disturbing turn of events since the war in Bosnia. And Bush & co. should be put to trial together with Saddam for what they have done.

2. If the US wanted to to the RIGHT THING they should have lifted the embargo and let the Iraqis breathe. But noooo... every time that was proposed you gave veto. But as Mr. Bushes EGO was to big he couln't swallow it and say: ok saddam lets work something out... we'll lift the sanctions and you'll let the inspectors in... no he had to go kill off something like 50k of soldiers in iraq.

3. The inspectors were in Iraq, Saddam didn't have one single piece of Nuclear or Bio or Chem warfare agents and the whole case Powel presented in the UN was laughable. Sure Saddam is an evil dictator but it is not our (or the USes) place to judge another country. It is it's own unit protected by international law and must be respected as such. Sooner or later the Iraqis would deal with Saddam on their own AND create a country based on what they think is right. Every time another country got involved and tried to modify another one by fore it led to DISASTER. And Iraq will be no different. At least they had water to drink some food to eat and electricity in their cities before. But now... half a year has gone by and we still hear the same old stuff.
The US should get the hell out of Iraq and let the UN sort things out.

4. Tell me this. If The Us is so concerned with evil dictators. Why in gods name were you allies with SADDAM UP TO 1991 ????

[ January 06, 2004, 18:41: Message edited by: JurijD ]

[JurijD]

Take this for example... If say in a distant future a powerful islamic country were to attack the US because they thought your ways are perverted and your rulers are inhumane forcing every woman to work for her living and your health and education systems for creating getos.

wouln't that be fun... its the same thing with iraq just turned upside down.

[Cipher7071]

I sense the shockwave from this thread imploding into another political argument. No wonder they seem to turn off intel so often.

[JurijD]

Originally posted by Cipher7071:
I sense the shockwave from this thread imploding into another political argument. No wonder they seem to turn off intel so often.

I sense the deep wisdom of your words

[Fyron]

Hmm... where or where did my post go? Must have been an internet glitch. Oh well. *kicks DSL* Not worth retyping it, as this isn't going to go anywhere.

[Puke]

Originally posted by JurijD:
At least in Europe we were able to preserve our differences and keep peace for the greater proportion of history. Sure there were wars but only because people like the original american settlers wanted to wipe everyone else out but themselves... BUT they all failed and now we have a culturaly diverse Europe that is peaceful....

alright, im not going to get into the political pissing match with you guys, as neither of you seems to have any interest more than a fraction of one side of the story, but the above comments on peacefull Europe are just absurd. Thanks, I actually got to laugh out loud.

You have a 60 year reprieve after over 2000 years of bloody conflict, and you think you've invented utopia? did you even think about that before you typed it?

Western civilation suffered a thousand year decline after the classical period, technology and philosophy was lost, and only at the turn of the 20th century were we just rediscovering the Last of the principals of calculus invented by Aristotel, who was killed by Romans in 322 BCE!

Give yourselves a few years, you'll be at war again. Theres constant war just to the east of you, and you're funding plenty of wars in Africa.

Im not going to tell you that anyone else is any better, but dont be so quick to pat youself on the back while youre taking a **** on someone else.

[JurijD]

1. Noone is funding wars in Africa apart from the US.

2. The "classical period" lol, yeah just another word for a time when 40% of the population were slaves... but hey your "classical" period was only 200 years back (50 years in some parts... oh and still is in others) no argument there.

3. Every US administration since the late 1970s was scared ****less that Europe might unite, kick them out and now that that is finally happening no wonder you people are paranoid about every little dispute in the security concil... I mean having 2 vetos and 1 more on the road is a big deal.

4. Anyone who says that Europe will get into another war is either stupid or thinks april fools is comming earlay this year. The old disputes over teritory and so on are irrelevent if you don't have any borders. Its like thinking Texas will invade Arizona or whatever to gain a few acres of land.

The historical development of Europe and the US is not at debate here anyway. I'm sure we each had our ups and downs. What is at debate however is the arrogant nature by which the US is trying to shape the world by its standards.

I mean why the hell isn't North Korea allowed nuclear weapons, is the US any better? Or Pakistan or India for that matter? The only reason why the US is trying so hard to "control" nuclear weapons is so they can BULLY everyone else into complying with their politics. And Since the unfortunate failure of Soviet Union, the US seems to think they'll be #1 for ever...

[ January 06, 2004, 22:25: Message edited by: JurijD ]

[JurijD]

Originally posted by Puke:
You have a 60 year reprieve after over 2000 years of bloody conflict, and you think you've invented utopia? did you even think about that before you typed it?

I always knew your schools don't give you much knowledge of history but I never suspected it was this bad... Don't judge the entire history based on the events of the first part of the 20th century.

I know there is no convincing you people that we did in fact ... inspite of all opposition and backstabbing by the US ... invet a sort of "utopia". Because for the first time in history countries have join together and eliminated borders, differences but retained cultures, Languages and all without a drop of blod.

I'm proud of it and I think our children will be too. I'm proud that I can say that this union wasn't born of war but of peace. If you can say the same about the US with a straight face be my guest.

[ January 06, 2004, 22:35: Message edited by: JurijD ]