War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[tesco samoa]

Here Here Baron. I agree 100% with you.

Going in to Afghan is a mistake.

Fighting a Static war against Gurellia tatics fails. The Last 300 years have proven this point over and over. The Afghan regulars and illregulars are a well trained and well motivated force. They are experienced and no doubt will remember all the lessions they learned fighting USSR.

I feel invading Afghan is wrong.


They should not be setting up task forces but sending in Special Ops to disrupt the terrorist camps, food supply and other supplies. Keep them on the move constantly. Find a camp and naplalm it so no usable material can be gained from the destroyed camp. And do it over and over.

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[dogscoff]

QUOTE:
we might discuss a "New World Order"
/QUOTE

An intresting lady on UK TV Last night on a news debate programme. SHe said a few things on this subject:

First, "globalisation". (According to her)The only countries really being globalised are the US, Canada, Europe, Australia etc. She reckons that until the process is extended to include other nations (ie truly global) then this kind of terrorism / hatred will continue. I'd like to hear more of her argument before I decide whether I agree on it. Anyone else see her on TV?

She also pointed out that this week a lot of politicians (notably Bush) have been repeatedly using the words "civilised world" in such a way as to imply that Arab countries are *not* civilised - which isn't really the case. They INVENTED civilisation.

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/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[tesco samoa]

The word civilized is one of the key propoganda words. As is Democracy and Freedom. It gives the World a common ground to rally behind.

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[AJC]

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

--John Lennon

[Andr�s]

quote:

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First, "globalisation". (According to her)The only countries really being globalised are the US, Canada, Europe, Australia etc.

---

I�m from Argentina, I don�t think she included latin america among the few globalized countries she was talking about.
The fact that Baron Munchausen assumed I was european proves it doesn�t matter where I�m from.
Far way from here, our economy depends on (is managed by) the US, we are waiting to see how consequences of this incident will influence will influence international commerce and how that will affect us.

[LazarusLong42]

On 11 September

Cry, O beautiful Nation!
This is your time of strife;
Into the heart of innocence
Was thrust an airborne knife.
The dagger of terror now appears
With blood up to its hilt;
The perches of eagles have hit the ground,
But they will be rebuilt.

Cry, O beautiful Nation!
This is your time of grief;
Friends and neighbors the world 'round
Are watching in disbelief.
Let flow the tears of sorrow
For the missing, for the lost;
But let not fear for tomorrow enter
Your thoughts at any cost.

Cry out, O adamant Nation!
This is your hour of strength;
The women and men who fight for you
Will go to every length.
Your flag still flies above the streets;
Liberty's light shines dear;
And all who believe in truth and right
Will surely persevere.

-- Eric Snyder II

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by tesco samoa:
The word civilized is one of the key propoganda words. As is Democracy and Freedom. It gives the World a common ground to rally behind.

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Tesco, I agree with much of what you have said in this thread. And I do agree that we need to proceed very carefully over the next few weeks and months that we truley seek justice, and not simply revenge. But Democracy and Freedom are not simply "propoganda words".

What they truly represent to us is difficult to understand, and even harder to put into words. Many Americans even have no idea what they mean. But if we do not, it is not because we do not value them dearly. It is simply because they are so much an ingrained part of our identity, that we often take them for granted.

Geoschmo

[Exculcator]

quote:

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Originally posted by dogscoff:
First, "globalisation". (According to her)The only countries really being globalised are the US, Canada, Europe, Australia etc. She reckons that until the process is extended to include other nations (ie truly global) then this kind of terrorism / hatred will continue. [/b]

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Uhm, but globalisation is exactly that those terrorists are fighting.
They do NOT want to be globalised, they want to live in a place where there is no outside influence 'corrupting' their society .
These people have a quite different mindset than us. And they want to keep it that way.


[This message has been edited by Exculcator (edited 14 September 2001).]

[Puke]

AJC, that is my favorite Lennon song. Of course, I usually stop at the first verse.

and yes, globalization is what the terrorists are fighting. yes, only first world nations are globalizing. they are globalizing INTO smaller nations where they setup sweatshops and take advantage of the local poverty. So far, it has been working really well for us, and im behind it. Of course its not all black, there are good points and benefits all around, but i wont take the time to argue that here.

and as for 'any response needs to be a violent one, involving the carpetbombing of terrorist states' (paraphrased) NO. I certainly would not mind seeing that, and i dont think it would be 100% counter productive, just oh.. 80% or so. Any response needs to leverage military, political, and economic force to completely eliminate the philosophys and ways of life that are so dyametrically opposed to western culture that the people following that set of beliefs has no recourse but to engage in guerillia (spelling?) warfare against the west. The western world has been destroying their way of life for centuries, and there is nothing they can do to stop us. they see it, and they are desperate. by comitting these acts, they are begging for their suffering to end. The cruelest thing we can do is to play 'nice guy' and only punish those directly responsible and leave the rest of the culture intact.

Its like playing SE4. your opponent has already lost, and their strength cant compair to yours. you have been at war for hundreds of turns, and you push them into a corner and force surrender. but you leave them with nothing and no hope of striking back, yet you are the 'nice guy' and you dont finish them off. both your people hate each other, but for some screwed up moral reason, you both just sit there in some sort of cold war standoff.

[dmm]

In 1999, the adult population of the Palestinian territories was 1.4 million. Let's say that there are 2 million today. The average wage is about 5000 US$. (source: UNSCO report) So giving every adult a full year's wage would cost $10B. At the risk of sounding like an "ugly American" again, I wonder how many years worth of wages it would take to pay most Palestinians in Israeli-occupied territory to emigrate and never come back? Of course, some people wouldn't leave even for 10 years of wages, but most probably would, and that's "only" $100B. Considering that Bush has been authorized to spend $40B to combat terrorism, I wonder if simple bribery wouldn't be cheaper? Maybe it's my immigrant roots, but I'd leave the US for some other English-speaking country if someone paid my wife and I 20 years worth of wages. What about the rest of you? Am I a money-grubbing, disloyal, ugly American slimeball, or would some of you emigrate with me? And what about Palestinians? Is this plan insane, or stupid, or inspired?