MBT's

[DRG]

Originally Posted by blazejos

From this it would appear than Polish Twardys do not have ERA on the hull sides only the hull front and turret front and side

?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
You'll be better at finding the posts then me. We had this discussion almost or than 10years ago When I came across the deal from Poland to supply Malaysia with the PT-91 PENDEKAR UNIT 500. This is relevant to the current discussion when you look at the ERA pkg., we gave it. What I don't remember are the particulars that would've been in the refs I supplied at the time; it'll be in this thread. But I do believe it predated the ERAWA-2 ERA.

Also, there's this as well...
Armament section:
"...and 24 grenade launchers fitted with smoke or anti-personnel fragmentation grenades. These are operated in conjunction with the OBRA laser warning system." This just caught my eye.

Design and Protection section:
"...explosive reactive armor Type ERAWA-1 (with one layer of explosive inside) and ERAWA-2 (with two layers of explosive inside) to the hull and turret. The armor package provides protection against the firing of small arms of 7.62, 12.7 and 14.5 mm caliber as well as cannon fragments between 20 and 30 mm."

Mobility:
"The upper part of the suspension is protected by steel armor plates with the forward part covered by ERAWA-1 explosive reactive armor blocks." You can see this clearly in the picture of the ref. below.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/pola..._pictures.html
This ref has been updated as it shows Ukraine as a user. Also, they do a very good job of reviewing the data sheets to update them when a change comes about i.e., adding the Ukraine.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt91_twardy.htm

Ref. 1
- PT-91M: export variant for Malaysia with SAGEM Savan-15 fire control system, PZL-Wola S-1000R 1,000 hp powerpack with Renk/SESM ESM-350M automatic transmission bringing its top speed to 70 km/h, and a new communications system. The main armament consists of a "Konštrukta defence a.s." design 2A46MS 125 mm tank gun made by ZTS - Špeciál a.s., a 7.62 mm FN MAG coaxial machine gun and a 12.7 mm FN Browning M2 HB AA machine gun. This variant is also equipped with Sagem VIGY 15 gyro-stabilized panoramic sight optronics, a SIGMA 30 laser gyro inertial navigation system, EADS EPS72 turret stabilization system, a PCO SSP-1 Obra-3 laser-warning system, integrated with ZM Dezamet 902A 81 mm smoke grenade launchers, CBRN warning system Pimco CHERDES II, communication systems: Thales TRC9310-3 F@stnet, Thales TRC3630-3, Thales SOTAS, 3rd gen. ERAWA 2 Explosive Reactive Armour, and Type 570P Diehl Remscheid GmbH tank tracks.

Ref. 2
PT-91M Pendekar export version supplied to Malaysia. This MBT is fitted with improved 125 mm gun, S-1000 engine, new hydropneumatic transmission, French fire control system, new communication system and some other changes.

I well remember now we discussed that Malasia's PT-91 was much better than Poland's at the time.

Now as the ref. suggests Poland has them however, DID Poland actually go forward with this modernization program? If so, is it in the OOB?
https://www.armyrecognition.com/mspo...mspo_2017.html

The next sounds more like it "could've been" ...
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt_16.htm

BOTTOMLINE LOOKS LIKE YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWER WITH MALASIA UNIT 500 ON ERA.

I HAVE PERSONAL ISSUES TO ATTEND TO TODAY-HOPE THIS HELPS.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

On this one, the blocks can be seen clearly along the side of the hull so methinks that the drawing is wrong

[blazejos]

Yes from what I see Don and FASTBOAT TOUGH has right drawing is wrong about PT-91 ERAWA on both sides.

I don't know about massive modernisation of PT-91 to M2 variant looks like that was an demonstrator and probably some of modernisations were implemented in Twardy's tanks in recent years but definitely not a RPG cage in rear

Here you have three PT-91 and T-72
[/quote]

But if you look on that photo this is T-72M1R with Ukrainians additions like RPG cage on rear [taken from T-72AMT modernisation] of tower and Kontak-1 so is possible that they also have since May 2022 some upgraded variant PT-91 Twardy(+)



Here is about this transfer of tanks in January 2023
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/poland-is-...ks-to-ukraine/

Here is also article about T-72M4 modernisation from Czech with have some common systems with PT-91. They also mention there that T-72 Avenger is less expensive than M4 modernisation of T-72M1
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebasti...h=3958b0f53ce7

And here article about Russian T-72B3 Model 2022 which in some way is modernisation and in other simplification to reduce costs they are already send now to battlefield

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries...rmor-5592.html

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don and I got the T-72B3M in the game a few years back for Russia.

I saw some "stuff" concerning the T-72B3 2022 when developing my list. That being said, honestly I couldn't see anything to warrant a new tank added when again we the T-72B3M (Sometimes referred to as the T-72B4.).

Also, you'll find when entered (We didn't have a T-72B3.) A very "ROBUST" T-72B3. I was modeled off Russian "CURRENT" UNIT 045.

I submitted it in the Patch Thread for the Ukraine and recently requested that tank and the T-72B3 be released "as needed" for the player vice being limited by the "capture button", tanks make up a combined total of just under 200 captured units which is significant,
and double the number thus far committed by NATO.

I believe you'll find overall that Don and I are pretty close per our captured lists for the Ukraine. I'm sure I submitted a couple he might not have and vise-versa from Don.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

right now it is as good as it needs to be

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Now we're getting word the Ukraine will receive the M1A2 instead of the M1A1 the "BASS TURDS"!!

Well, little does the Govt. we're ready for "Will the real ABRAMS-please Standup!!".

Fortunately, we have it covered BOTH ways and doesn't look like we wasted our time in the process.

I speak of the M1A2PL/T Export Version for M1A2 as entered last year, and the currently "new" built M1A1 UKR Export Version for M1A1. Which I think we'll see more of in the future.

So, to you Govt. and DOD officials (With all due respect. Gotta protect that retirement pay. ) and from one of my favorite movies MP and the HG, "I generally SPIT in your general direction you dirty filthy Englishman."

So, we're good and as usual we'll have to wait for "Will the real ABRAMS-please Standup!!"
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ams_tanks.html

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The hits keep on coming!

First CHALLENGER:
Will arrive in the Ukraine at the end of March or mine-April as no plan is perfect. Ukrainian crews had just arrived according to this, so that makes it last weekend. Now we have a better picture of the training cycle which puts it at 2 months minimum.

That's how long it takes to train crews on the ABRAMS as well which I posted from USA source about three years back. Tank Commanders take longer as do Platoon Leaders. They'll finish that in the Ukraine if they follow the T-55S current field training taken from the T-55S "SLAT" article I posted last week from FORBES.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...arch_2023.html

LEOPARD 1A5 NO NOT FROM THEM BUT FROM DENMARK
THIS IS NOT ACTIONABLE AT THIS TIME.
That being said it is something we need to track. The deal has not been reached but is in progress from the Company that bought the tanks from Denmark originally. As the article indicates the German company FFG has the capability to further update these tanks but we don't know if they will, depending on the contract IF Denmark can get the deal done in the first place.

We are looking at Denmark LEOPARD 1A5-DK UNIT 023.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...1a5_tanks.html

GERMANY:
Here's a perfect example why training matters and ALL the countries are doing within their normal training cycles. A simple term-"Return on Investment" in others being able to operate them without them getting blown up in the first week of operations,
AGAIN I would point out how the Ukraine is currently training with the T-55S that's been in country since last October (End of.) .

Countries are giving all they have at great cost. The French for example is currently violating the law concerning how low they can go on military equipment; in this case I'm speaking of CEASAR. This article deals with concern over the LEOPARD
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...79ca94e50a7e84

OMG 4am WTF!

I'm out!

Regards,
Pat


POST HAS BEEN EDITED SO YOU CAN ACCESS REF UNDER GERMANY.

[DRG]

I dug into the DK version a bit and realized the upgrades to that tank made it closer to the Icon used for the Canadian C1 than what was being used so that has been changed and it is added to Ukraine but re-nationalized for now

[DRG]

https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...ne-bound-tanks

Augustdorf (Germany) (AFP) – Germany's defence minister on Wednesday showed off the tanks Berlin is preparing to send to Kyiv, but recognised a "bitter loss" for the under-equipped Bundeswehr.

The arms delivery announced last week by Germany was necessary so the "Ukrainians win the war", Defence Minister Boris Pistorius said on a visit to army barracks in northwestern Augustdorf.

But for the roughly 550 soldiers in the battalion stationed in the town, the loss of 14 of their Leopard 2 tanks would be felt keenly, Pistorius said.

"Their hearts bleed at the idea that these tanks have to be given up, but they understand that is the way it is. Ukraine needs all the support we can give it," he said.

Pistorius said he had "two hearts" in his chest, taking account of the needs of both the German and Ukrainian armies.

Germany, which long-stalled over the decision to send tanks to Ukraine, now aims to deliver them "late March, early April" as part of an alliance of countries willing to supply "between 120 and 140" units, according to officials in Kyiv.

Before they can be employed on the battlefield, Ukrainian soldiers must first learn how to use and maintain some of the most modern tanks in the world.

Their intensive training will begin in the next few days in Germany, Pistorius said.

"It will not be the full training that we have for our soldiers but that's the only way," the minister said.

Wearing a camouflage jacket, Pistorius himself went out in one of the Leopard 2 tanks which criss-crossed the muddy training field.

The Ukrainian soldiers' instruction will take place in at the Bundeswehr's training centre in Munster, northern Germany, where their colleagues are already learning to use the Marder infantry fighting vehicle.

The course will take around six weeks to complete, according to a source close to the German army.

Normally, the training period for the four-person team in the Leopard 2 is much longer. "Six weeks for the pilot, three months for the one who fires the shells and the one who loads them, and three years for the commander," Martin Waltemathe, a spokesman for the Augustdorf brigade, told AFP.

"Driving is pretty simple," according to Waltemathe. Steering the tank is "intuitive like an iPhone", according to another military source.

The vehicle maintenance and repairs can however be more "problematic", per Waltemathe, who holds the rank of captain. Six years are usually needed to become well-versed in its upkeep.

The defence ministry has promised to replace the Ukraine-bound Leopards as quickly as possible. In all, the Bundeswehr has 320 Leopard 2 tanks, the most modern version in use since the 1970s.

Procuring new units "takes time", Pistorius said, but the aim was to get orders in "quickly so that the production can start".

Reequipping the Bundeswehr is a top priority for the defence minister, who was appointed in January.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz in September vowed to transform the country's military into the "best equipped" in Europe. But years of underinvestment have left a huge hill to climb for the Bundeswehr.

A guess on my part but the training times quoted as "normal" may not quite apply if the crews being trained were already previously trained tank crewmen ......that and training knowing that knowledge will need to be applied for real in a few weeks is another factor