Dud nations

[Sombre]

That doesn't mean that there aren't bad nations (as in underpowered). Some of the people here (me included) just don't have the experience to make those calls. There are people who have made pretty watertight cases for things in the game being bad - there's no need for discussion in those cases.

The position that there's nothing 'bad' in the game is so ridiculous to me there's no way I'd ever bother arguing with it. All games have things that aren't balanced or just weren't quite thought through by the devs.

[PvK]

Once again, it seems to me that a large part of the disagreement comes from a problem of definitions and perspectives. You and Gandalf don't, I think, mean the same thing when you say "bad" or "dud nations" (if Gandalf ever affirms those terms ). I think Gandalf's concern is that people new to the game or new to the topic may get the wrong idea, and that he's trying to supply the contexts and provisos that others are leaving out when they comment about things in a negative way. Of course there are also cases where people haven't considered the good sides of something, or haven't learned the good uses of things (e.g. Agarthan amphibians, Sidhe assassin, human heavy infantry).

[CUnknown]

Responding to Micah's rebuttal:

1) Agreed. I'm glad you agree that Ulm's infantry are truely excellent. I certainly agree that Ulm armies having a strat move of 1 is a horrible disadvantage -- I think it's the worst thing about Ulm, honestly, but this wasn't mentioned in the earlier discussion. I was de-bunking the idea that Ulm's infantry aren't 1st class, and I think at least that part of my argument holds. All heavy infantry is 1 strat move, I believe, but Ulm is forced to rely on them. Admittedly, a major problem.

2) I just disagree here. Let's keep flaming arrows out of this equation and focus on the unit itself with no buffs. Let's take an average protection rating of 12 and go from there, discounting the range bonus of arbelests.

Short bows doing damage of 10, firing every turn. Using the dominions probability table from the manual, they do 1 point of damage only on a 24% chance, and they're doing 5 points of damage on a 6% chance. So, one archer hitting his target three times has a pretty good shot of doing a point of damage (if I'm understanding this right).

A crossbow doing 10 ap damage will do 1 damage 76% of the time. On average, I guess they'll do 4 damage, and 11% of the time they will do 10 damage, potentially enough for a 1 shot kill.

An arbelest doing 14 ap damage, on average, will do 9 damage to that poor fool. That's more than double the x-bow, so even if we say the crossbow fires twice as often as the arbelest, the arbelest is -still better.- In fact, the arbelest bolt will kill a 13 hp, 16 protection heavy calvary in one shot 8% of the time (the x-bow would do it only 3% of the time).

Not only that, but it is a clear advantage to front-load your damage, that's less guys shooting back at you.

3) If Ulm had a 300 gold mage option, they would be the best faction in the game. Just like if -any- other race had Ulm's forging abilty, -it- would be the best faction in the game. I'm not sure how you can view Ulm's having tons of cash on hand as anything other than a nice advantage.

4) Often, I empower my smiths so they have a wider selection of forgable items. At least I did this in dominions 2, in dominions 3, 10% of my smiths will have an extra random path, something I am salivating over.

5) Construction 6 doesn't take that long, given my research priorities. Or priority, as the case may be. That would be Construction 6. Spending a pile of gems to stay competitive, you say? I think I mentioned they only cost me 2 per lantern, if I make 10, that's only 20 gems. And often I sell them for 5-6 gems a pop, that's over 100% profit. Lightless Lanterns -make- gems, they don't cost gems! Oh, and usually I use them for a couple turns before selling them, the buyer is none the wiser they're getting used goods (shhh!).

6) Yeah, this is a problem. Yet, it's a problem that can be solved by the pretender.

About Ulm's mismatches, the one I agree with more than anything is the elephants. Arcosephale kicks the ever living crap out of Ulm -- they have elephants, infantry to rival Ulm's, astral mages to dominate my poor Ulmish minds, and to top it off, they have better research and will kill me in the lategame. But, I'd say that every well-balanced race has at least one mismatch out there, waiting for them. I'm not trying to argue that Ulm is super-awesome, or one of the top tier of factions.

One thing I didn't mention before is the access to spies. I love spies.

[tromper]

Haven't read the entire thread in one sitting, but upon glossing, I'd like anyone to tell me why LA Abysia isn't utter crap. Or were we supposed to stick to EA only? Heh. Anyway, LA Abysia gets my vote for the worst land nation.

[Wish]

uh, a pretender with nature and fire for a great bless on a sacred troop with a morningstar and a shield.

easy access to blood and devils.

relatively strong fire mages for falling flames.

and thats just at a cursory glance

[thejeff]

Isn't one of those 10% randoms Air?

That lets Master Smiths make cheap Quills too. Granted they won't have much air income to work with, but at 2 per, they don't need a lot.

[Shovah32]

LA Abysia is a fairly nice blood nation but i personally dont find them that good.

[Sombre]

He asked about LA Abysia.

[tromper]

Wish, if you're telling me that Guardian of the Pyres are worth 55g and 28r with stats that can't match up with FAR cheaper units of other nations I suspect you've never played Abysia in MP.

But hey, if you have, please do tell me how those double blessed Guardians worked out for you. I'm curious. And sort of laughing. I'm sort of new and all. Tell me what I'm missing.

[Wish]

well they are cheaper under conceptual balance. so i guess the community has already ceded that point.

I played an MP with them in dom 2. they can hold their own. (just not against qm)