OT (or is it?): American Imperialism

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I was just browsing the newspapers when I saw a mentioning of "Bush squeezing oil out of VASSAL STATE Iraq". I'd thought about this b4, about American global commercial/political/military imperialism. Saddam refused to let WMD inspectors enter his country... and what do the US do? Invade the country... WITHOUT A UN MANDATE. Ok, for Afghanistan, they had one, but for Iraq? The UN was still voting!

And look to the current situation: murders, kidnappings, bombings, urban warfare, etc. Before the invasion, Iraq was stable - opressed, but stable.

A few days back I noticed a small mention in the newspapers of a controversial Iraqi politician who "would rid the Iraqi Parliament of Saddam loyalists". Well, excuse me, but I believe that about the entire Shi'ite population of Iraq were Saddam loyalists... and they comprise about 20% of the Iraqi population. To "rid the Iraqi parliament of Saddam loyalists" would mean shutting TWENTY PERCENT of the ENTIRE IRAQI POPULATION out of parliament. And then what? You could very easily end up with a situation where the Shi'ites are being restricted in many aspects of life - due to laws passed in parliament - which were made by Sunni politicians - which were the only politicians in the parliament. But would the US interfere in case of discrimination like this? I can imagine the official reaction:
"The Iraqi parliament has voted to pass these laws. They were created in a democratic fashion, and we will not interfere with democracy."
Hypocritic son of a *****.

And in the end were there any nukes or WMDs in Iraq? No, just several poorly maintained facilities with radioactive material - which is currently irradiating the population, and the US has not done ANYTHING to prevent it.

Sometimes, I really wonder: why do we allow the US to exert this much influence on us? Why does the US have to interfere everywhere in the world? Why do we still have a f*cking NATO if the US comprises over half of its entire military strength? Why do we allow the US to force us? Why do they have nukes stationed in Europe that almost nobody knows about? Why do US multinatitionals intrude our lives? McDonalds restaurants are to be found everywhere in the world - from Rio to China. In the waning days of the Soviet Union, McDonalds opened restaurants in Moscow. Why? What is it that the US have to demonstrate their power to themselves in every possible way?

[dogscoff]

I don't want to say anything much because this thread is probably doomed to becoming a flamefest anyway, but you are not the only one who is angry.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

But that is american culture. I'm not saying that capitalism is an exclusively american thing, or that the US even invented it, but the form of excessive, aggressive, all-absorbing, all-homogenising, lowest-common-denominator, ignorance-worshipping capitalism that is currently melting the population of the entire universe into a gigantic, brainless, MTV-cloned consumer-pool for rampant, soulless multinationals was very much born in the US in the latter half of the last century. I guess it's difficult for Americans to appreciate just how invasive this influence feels to everyone else. For example, this year I've seen the first few Humvees in this country, and it sickens me that people here are actually becoming ignorant enough to think these hulking abominations are actually desirable on our overpopulated little island with its narrow old streets and city centres.

Thnx Dogscoff... thats exactly my point

[Slynky]

StrategiaInUltima said:

Thnx Dogscoff... thats exactly my point

Then go complain to the people that purchased them and quit blaming America for an "arm-twisting" that didn't occur. In order for something to sell, there needs to be a market. (I shake my head everytime I see one, too!)

[TerranC]

Slynky said:
Then go complain to the people that purchased them and quit blaming America for an "arm-twisting" that didn't occur. In order for something to sell, there needs to be a market. (I shake my head everytime I see one, too!)

Our point exactly.

[Renegade 13]

Ok, just to clear a few things up:

- As for the nukes in European countries: Your leaders have to have accepted the nukes being there, no?? Take your frustrations up with your leaders. They are the ones who should be listening to the common people, and if the common people say no nukes, they shouldn't accept American nukes. However, you can't blame the US for wanting to have nukes all over the world; it gives them power, and everyone wants power. Convince your leaders that the people don't want the nukes, and they'll probably leave.

- Fat has been proven to be as addictive in some cases as nicotine (addictive agent in cigarettes). Therefore, the point made below about cigarettes being different than fast-food due to addictive factor is not horribly accurate. However, I think that people who used to smoke before it was known to be unhealthy....that's not so much their fault as people being fat is. I'm sorry, but I have little sympathy for people who are overweight due to eating lots of fast food. Like someone said, it's your own hand that's stuffing your own face. Your own choice.

- Americans are by no means the only people who practice "cultural imperialism" if there is such a thing. They are simply the most successful at it, and therefore they take the brunt of the criticism of the world. Doesn't at all mean that other countries aren't trying to do the same thing...maybe even some of your own countries?? (referring of course to the people here who are not American)

- Oil: The middle east supplies a lot of the worlds oil, granted, but here in Canada, in the tar sands of Alberta there is supposedly more oil trapped in the sands than is in most of the middle east oil reserves. Also, where I live, in British Columbia, there's huge oil reserves off the coast and actually all over the province. They simply haven't been tapped as much as the middle east has done. My point is, if the Middle East cuts the world off oil, it won't be such a horrible thing. In fact, I'd prefer it if we didn't have to rely on such an unstable part of the world for a product that most of us use in our daily lives. Be happy Americans, NAFTA forces Canada to sell you whatever oil you want to buy from us. Even though you still won't accept our beef!!

Now, not all of what I have said has any bearing on this conversation, but I hope it all does relate to the central theme, or at least to the many tangents this conversation has followed.

Oh, and for those of you thinking I must be American, because I'm not blaming America for all the world's problems, think again. I'm Canadian, and yes, there is a difference . A big one. Whose culture would you rather be under the influence of, American, where people are usually considered equal, at least under the law, or a culture like the Indian one, where it's perfectly alright to kill a woman simply because she 'shamed' your family? Or another similar culture?? Always remember, no matter how bad things are, they can always, always get much worse...until you're dead. Cant' get much worse than that, eh??

[dogscoff]

Then go complain to the people that purchased them and quit blaming America for an "arm-twisting" that didn't occur. In order for something to sell, there needs to be a market. (I shake my head everytime I see one, too!)

Ah yes, market forces. The sacred democracy of the wallet. Unfortunately, it's all hogsh!t. A company with enough money can generate any demand it wants out of thin air- it's called marketing. I mean seriously, what possible reason could there be for anyone (anyone not planning to invade something, anyway) to actually want a Humvee other than for image? It serves no other purpose that couldn't be served cheaper, cleaner and more efficiently by a smaller vehicle. It's a false demand, resulting from the culture of excession in my previous post.

[Ragnarok-X]

Slightly OT, but did someone watch "SuperSize ME" ? I think it pretty much fits the topic. In my opinion the USA are trying to force their way of life onto everyone else, weiter it be by force or without. Just recently i read that america has deposit 180 !!! nuclear weapons over military bases in germany, france, spain and great brittain. The reason for this is because in a condition of war, those missiles can reach targets in europe faster than when launched from north-america. Just imagine this...now, about their various wars against islamic countries...now that korea announced they have nuclear weapons, how will bush react to this ? Didnt he promised he would make america "safe" and keep the people "safe" ? All i can is that both bush, the administration and EVERYONE who voted for bush in the last election of a stupid **** and should care for this children or whatever may come after him.

A lot of people will agree with me, weither they openly say so or dont.

[geoschmo]

It's not a plague Dogscoff. I might be convinced that it's an addiction, but it's not a disease. It's not the Borg. People sucumbing to rampant consumerism aren't losing their free will. They aren't being made to do anything they don't want to do. I won't argue it's not healthy, but I won't try and complain that it's McDonalds fault I'm so overweight either. I've eaten a lot of cheeseburgers in my life time. And I can honestly say that in every case the hand stuffing it in my face was attached to my own arm.

Where is your nations responsibility in this discussion? Why are you here protesting the evils of American greed and our prosteltyzing form of consumer excess, instead of preaching to your own countrymen for taking part in the very activities which are the real cause of you afflictions. Supply follows demand D, not the other way around.

It's nothing person though D. I'll be the first to admit that Americans are just as bad at this sort of attitude of victimization. We meddle in Latin American political affairs telling ourselves we are trying to stop the flow of drugs into our country when the flow would stop if we simply stopped snorting the drugs in the first place. And of course, the whole Middle East would be nothing to us but a bunch of sand if we didn't need the oil to satisfy our own excesive desires.

But really, how would you take it if we started complaining that the reason we drive SUV's is because the Arab countries keep supplying us with so much cheap gasoline? The argument doesn't really work does it?

[geoschmo]

Why? Like Clinton said, "Because we can."

Say what you want about the motivations of the US administration attacking Iraq. A lot of Americans will agree with you on that. President Bush was just recently reelected by the smallest margin ever for an incumbant, so don't assume that all Americans agree with him.

But how does McDonalds in Moscow translate into evidence of some nefarious plot? It's called international trade. Americans buy a lot of stuff from your country. In fact, we set a record trade deficet last year. MickyD's wasn't installed in Moscow by a military invasion. Some Muscovite decided his fellow citizens would enjoy eating greasy cheeseburgers and soggy french fries enough to pay money for the privilage. McDonalds being in business to make money simply obliged them. No one is forcing people to eat there.

By the way, you have got Shi'ite and Sunni reversed in your post. The Sunnis are the 20% minority that is presumed to be loyal to Saddam. In reality most of them probably saw he was a bastard too, but at this point they are facing the very real prospect of being on the wrong end of a round of ethnic cleansing, so it would be natural that they might long for the "good ole days".