OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.(Edited2)

[Jack Simth]

Violist said:
Holy crap, I want Destruction

It's only mildly superior to Finger of Death in it's effects - well... unless you just leave the bodies of your enemies lying about, of course, rather than taking the time to Disintegrate them and scatter the dust; however, it has a focus requirement that Finger of Death lacks, and so can't be readily used when grappled.

Violist said:

To me it'd make sense if Elorin was at least familiar with the various names of the spells, since he'd probably spend time chatting to other clerics, and surely conversation would eventually come to world-shattering spells, etc.

Adventures: Favored souls are often loners, wandering the land serving their deities. They are welcomed by their churches but treated as unusual and are sometimes misunderstood. They are emissaries of their deities and outside the church's command structure - respected mystics not requiring the support normally crucial to a priest's success. This makes them sometimes revered and sometimes envied by their cleric cousins. While favored souls are occasionally disrespected for their perceived lack of discipline, devout worshippers know that they are a powerful message from, and indeed a living manifestation of, their deities.

(emphasis added)
He may have talked to clerics, but he doesn't get automatic access to the full list like a cleric does, he doesn't really stay in one place, and so on; he does not automatically know everything. Kaylin, on the other hand, has a very good Spellcraft roll....

Violist said:

The Limited Wish idea sounds fine, Kaylin's done it before and wouldn't mind the 300 XP cost...

On another note, I may have an Ultimate Frisbee practice at 0900 PST Saturday, but more on that later. If I'm not on IRC or openRPG by whatever time we decide to start, use the charsheet at
http://oregonstate.edu/~leungau/Kaylin.html
I'll try to update that whenever necessary. Also, for your edification, Kaylin's Great Warping and Elemental Blast as I believe we haggled out are there.

Ahh... so we may be a little bit short of Blasting power tomorrow. Shouldn't pose too much of a problem; easily adaptable (although a little odd that your character won't be participating on the journey for her side-quest....)

[Violist]

Well, if I am gone, it'd only be for a few hours. Perhaps she's cramming in case there's an entrance exam? Just NPC her, and here's the standard spell lists I've come up with. Hopefully I won't be late or there isn't practice, coach is being evil right now

Hmm, I was unaware that "Favored Souls" are different than clerics... my Spellcraft roll isn't that great, why just the other day I rolled a 33! *cough*

[Jack Simth]

Violist said:
Well, if I am gone, it'd only be for a few hours. Perhaps she's cramming in case there's an entrance exam? Just NPC her, and here's the standard spell lists I've come up with. Hopefully I won't be late or there isn't practice, coach is being evil right now

Hmm, I was unaware that "Favored Souls" are different than clerics... my Spellcraft roll isn't that great, why just the other day I rolled a 33! *cough*

Yeah... that's what you get on a nat 3. Out of combat, I'd suggest taking 10, if it wasn't kinda redundant.

[douglas]

Jack Simth said:
It is now Type: Construct until dispelled (Same Kingdom: +5 (dead vegetable), Same Size: +2 (large), same int: +2 (-); the Polymorph Any Object is permanent for duration factor of +9 or better); yes, it's a valid target. Jason isn't, though, unless you can meet him on the Etherial Plane or he hitches a ride in someone or some such.

Here I was, all set to argue that he's considered merely incorporeal when manifesting, so at worst I'd have a 50% miss chance and by a strict reading of the rules even that only applies to damage, when I noticed that the Manifestation ability specifically disallows a ghost's touch spells from affecting material targets. Technically it doesn't say anything about touch spells from material sources not affecting the ghost, but it makes some sense that it would go both ways, so I won't argue. Hmm, maybe we should get a pet of some sort for him to ride in when we're travelling long distances with Wind Walk.

Jack Simth said:
Oh, you need to roll to know specifically what's available that you don't actually know - either Spellcraft (which tells you information about any spell, regardless of source) or Knoweledge (Religion) (limited to Clerical spells)

What's the DC? Spellcraft for identifying a spell being cast is 15+level, and that implies knowledge of the specific gestures, incantations, etc used to cast it. I'd imagine knowledge of a spell's existence and a general idea of its effects would be considerably lower DC. I'm not sure how or even if using Knowledge (Religion) instead would change it - it's more specific (cleric spells only), but it's also not as focused on that particular subject.

Jack Simth said:
... and speaking of which, Knoweledge(Religion) is cross-class for favored souls; your character sheet needs revising in the skill section.

Oops, I didn't look at the class skills list very closely and just assumed that any primary divine caster would have Knowledge (Religion) on the list just like every arcane spellcasting class I know of has Knowledge (Arcana).

Hmm, I just checked, and Favored Soul is the ONLY divine spellcasting class I could find that doesn't have either one of Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Nature) on its class list, and the Epic Spellcasting feat makes it pretty clear that those two knowledge skills, along with Knowledge (Arcana), are considered very highly related to spellcasting in general. Given that, it just doesn't make sense to me for a primary spellcasting class to not have the appropriate knowledge skill on its class list when classes like Paladin and Ranger, which give spellcasting as a minor or secondary feature, do. Knowledge (Arcana) is on the Favored Soul list, but it's linked to arcane spellcasting, not divine. I think Knowledge (Religion) was left off the list or replaced with Knowledge (Arcana) by mistake.

Edit: In case you want to argue that the Favored Soul's lack of scholarly study is the reason, consider this quote from the PHB concerning Sorcerers and the fact that Knowledge (Arcana), their relevant "spellcasting" knowledge skill, is on their class list anyway: "Since sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of
rigorous study that wizards go through, they don�t have the
background of arcane knowledge than most wizards have."

Jack Simth said:
As for how you get them? The Favoured Soul develops a desire to be able to do something, and the diety, if it's something it lets it's clerics do, and if it's not too much for one so inexperienced (e.g., the FS has attained a high enough level that the FS has a spell known available at that level, and the FS hasn't asked for too many), the diety lets the favored soul do so (a limited wish will permit you to go through the process again - seeing you expend such recources, the diety permits it to work for a favored one in full knoweledge).

Ok, that makes sense. The character decides it would be nice if he could do a particular thing, and the deity looks for a spell that matches.

Jack Simth said:
Long as you mark the expense off, sure; it's you basic save-or-die spell.

Except that this one actually has decent damage on a successful save (10d6) and it's a bit harder to bring someone back who got killed by it than usual - nothing short of True Resurrection, Wish, or Miracle will do.

[Jack Simth]

[/quote]

douglas said:
Here I was, all set to argue that he's considered merely incorporeal when manifesting, so at worst I'd have a 50% miss chance and by a strict reading of the rules even that only applies to damage, when I noticed that the Manifestation ability specifically disallows a ghost's touch spells from affecting material targets. Technically it doesn't say anything about touch spells from material sources not affecting the ghost, but it makes some sense that it would go both ways, so I won't argue. Hmm, maybe we should get a pet of some sort for him to ride in when we're travelling long distances with Wind Walk.

Well... he doesn't currently have a familiar... hmm... what to get...

douglas said:

What's the DC? Spellcraft for identifying a spell being cast is 15+level, and that implies knowledge of the specific gestures, incantations, etc used to cast it. I'd imagine knowledge of a spell's existence and a general idea of its effects would be considerably lower DC. I'm not sure how or even if using Knowledge (Religion) instead would change it - it's more specific (cleric spells only), but it's also not as focused on that particular subject.

Oh, 10+spell level to know it exists for either; better rolls give more information

douglas said:

Oops, I didn't look at the class skills list very closely and just assumed that any primary divine caster would have Knowledge (Religion) on the list just like every arcane spellcasting class I know of has Knowledge (Arcana).

Hmm, I just checked, and Favored Soul is the ONLY divine spellcasting class I could find that doesn't have either one of Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Nature) on its class list, and the Epic Spellcasting feat makes it pretty clear that those two knowledge skills, along with Knowledge (Arcana), are considered very highly related to spellcasting in general. Given that, it just doesn't make sense to me for a primary spellcasting class to not have the appropriate knowledge skill on its class list when classes like Paladin and Ranger, which give spellcasting as a minor or secondary feature, do. Knowledge (Arcana) is on the Favored Soul list, but it's linked to arcane spellcasting, not divine. I think Knowledge (Religion) was left off the list or replaced with Knowledge (Arcana) by mistake.

Spellcraft is specific knoweledge about spells; it's the theory of how magic works (arcane or divine); every primary (and most secondary) spellcaster has Spellcraft on their class list (including the Favored Soul), as far as I'm aware. Knoweledge(Arcana) is "ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts" - more a history of magic and magical critters; it's almost impossible for a Wizard to do without Spellcraft (can't copy spells!), but Knoweledge(Arcana) is mostly for synergy (with spellcraft), clues, some monster information, and epic spellcasting; Knoweledge(Arcana) is about the stuff; Spellcraft is about the magic. Knoweledge(Religion) is very similar to Knoweledge(Arcana): "gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead" - church theology, traditions, history, symbols (plot-related clues, mostly) and undead (monster info).

Also, an inherent limitation of the class (such as relying on two spellcasting stats); helps balance those monk-perfect saves, energy resitances, and eventual flight and DR 10.

douglas said:
Edit: In case you want to argue that the Favored Soul's lack of scholarly study is the reason, consider this quote from the PHB concerning Sorcerers and the fact that Knowledge (Arcana), their relevant "spellcasting" knowledge skill, is on their class list anyway: "Since sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of
rigorous study that wizards go through, they don�t have the
background of arcane knowledge than most wizards have."

Sorcerors studying arcane secrets is a common thing in fiction, so Sorcerors have access to the magical history skill and spell theory; however, a Sorceror can get by quite readily without either Spellcraft or Knoweledge(Arcana), and so doesn't need rigorus training (regular will do, or even none at all) although both are still useful (identifying scrolls, potions, and spells (spellcraft); recognizing ancient magical artifacts, predicting magical beasts, and solving those ancient puzzles (Arcana)) the Sorceror's short but flexible spell list makes knowing about the critter in question far less useful than it is to a wizard's long but restricted spell list - the sorceror can see if the fireball or the lightning bolt does better (and has the extra spell slots to do so), and lay down more of whichever was more effective; the wizard must prepare in advance.

douglas said:
Ok, that makes sense. The character decides it would be nice if he could do a particular thing, and the deity looks for a spell that matches.

For instance, Destruction would be wanting to make your enemies simply go away... for good.

douglas said:
Except that this one actually has decent damage on a successful save (10d6) and it's a bit harder to bring someone back who got killed by it than usual - nothing short of True Resurrection, Wish, or Miracle will do.

Yep; a single Cleric or Wizard two levels above the party (or a Rogue or Bard with Use Magic Device and a scroll or two; perhaps a Sorceror or Wizard with Planar Binding (for Ifreet - they can grant three wishes to a mortal in a single day)). Not so hard, really, for a DM.

Mind you, save-or-die effects work both ways. How does a CR 16 encounter with a Favored Soul 16 with the Divine Reach metamagic feat, Harm, Heal, Wind Wall, spell reistance, Distruction, Protection from Energy, and a Bead of Karma (Caster level 20; Dispel Magic DC 31....) standing in winged boots sound? Fort save-or die for the Rogue & Wizard, Will save or die for the Paladin, Death for the ghost (half of 150 is death for Jason; although of a temporary nature, so the will half doesn't matter), spells mostly fail, arrows don't hit, and swords can't reach. And nominally only CR 16; a "Very Difficult" but hardly game-breaking encounter, by the book, although the extra wealth could probably push it to Encounter Level 17.

[NullAshton]

Jack, you could get a silver dragon as a familar.

[Jack Simth]

Barring the Improved Familiar feat, a familiar needs to start out as a mundane animal; as a full-fledged (if small) dragon, Kibin doesn't quite qualify.

[douglas]

Jack Simth said:
Also, an inherent limitation of the class (such as relying on two spellcasting stats); helps balance those monk-perfect saves, energy resitances, and eventual flight and DR 10.

How is taking Knowledge (Religion) off the class list a significant balance adjustment? It's hardly something a powergamer would spend much time considering when deciding whether to take the class or not, with the singular exception of if he were making an epic character and Epic Spellcasting was a major feature of his plan. Anyway, since my choice of that skill for the second of my two skill points per level was based on mistaken information and not a major part of my character concept, can I change it to something else if you're not going to let me take it as a class skill? Or do I have to pay the extra xp to take Psychic Reformation all the way back to 1st level (350 instead of 75 for me, 350 instead of 300 for Kaylin)?

Jack Simth said:
Mind you, save-or-die effects work both ways. How does a CR 16 encounter with a Favored Soul 16 with the Divine Reach metamagic feat, Harm, Heal, Wind Wall, spell reistance, Distruction, Protection from Energy, and a Bead of Karma (Caster level 20; Dispel Magic DC 31....) standing in winged boots sound? Fort save-or die for the Rogue & Wizard, Will save or die for the Paladin, Death for the ghost (half of 150 is death for Jason; although of a temporary nature, so the will half doesn't matter), spells mostly fail, arrows don't hit, and swords can't reach. And nominally only CR 16; a "Very Difficult" but hardly game-breaking encounter, by the book, although the extra wealth could probably push it to Encounter Level 17.

Oh, I think we could handle it, just as soon as I get some ranks in Spellcraft (instantly if you let me change it out because of the mistake with Knowledge (Religion), otherwise when Kaylin casts Limited Wish to let me get Hero's Feast). Harm, Heal, and Destruction are all on my spells known list, so I could counter them without needing a caster level check. Meanwhile, Kibin can fly around the Wind Wall to attack or breathe at him, Kaylin could get through the SR pretty easily to blast him (throw enough save-or-die spells and he's sure to fail eventually, and she's got a few non-energy damage spells), and Jason could probably grapple him without too much difficulty (it's a Supernatural Ability for him, so SR does not apply).

Edit: Also, the NPC's caster level of 20 does nothing to prevent suppression of his Winged Boots with a targeted Dispel Magic (CL 5, so DC 16).

[Jack Simth]

Server online.

Switching out for Spellcraft or Knoweledge (Arcana) is fine.

And yes, you could get such a character; but chances are he'd be taking someone down every round until then, with a properly distanced setup; Kaylin only has 51 HP and SR 18; a caster level 20 Harm, even if she makes the save, will still do 75 damage; instant death. Kibin is made of sterner stuff, but his will save is only +9 or so; a farily minimal Reach Harm would have a Will save of 18 (5th level spell, 7th level slot; minimum primary casting stat 17) but probably considerably more; and you're right; the boots could be taken out; good catch - needs Spell Immunity, then.

[douglas]

Jack Simth said:
Server online.

I'll be on after I get some lunch.

Jack Simth said:
Switching out for Spellcraft or Knoweledge (Arcana) is fine.

Thank you.

Jack Simth said:
And yes, you could get such a character; but chances are he'd be taking someone down every round until then, with a properly distanced setup;

Last I checked, Reach Spell and the Hierophant's Divine Reach ability only have a range of 30 feet.

Jack Simth said:
Kaylin only has 51 HP and SR 18; a caster level 20 Harm, even if she makes the save, will still do 75 damage; instant death.

Quote from Harm spell description: "but it cannot reduce the target�s hit points to less than 1"

Jack Simth said:
and you're right; the boots could be taken out; good catch - needs Spell Immunity, then.

Spell Immunity does not protect against spells that don't allow SR, so it can't block Dispel Magic.