War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[Fred]

NATO today has, the first time ever in its history, declared the invoking of Article V of the NATO charter, the mutual defence situation.

This declares an attack on any member of the alliance is to be considered an attack on all of them.

All NATO armed forces were set to a high state of alert.
Europe now stands shoulder to shoulder with its United States friends and allies.

We in germany are deeply shocked, but dedicated to support the United States with all actions they will take, be it political, diplomatic or military actions. This state of mind applies to all other NATO and EU members.

We mourn for the innocent victims in NYC and Washington, that were hit by an unprecedented act of murder.

Take care you all!

Fred
Germany

[Mordante]

Well my world view changed on tuesday I can tell you. I'm British, and I watched the developing massacre live on BBC, and besides offering my sympathy and best regards to anyone who lost friends and family in those outrages, I am now seriously wondering exactly where our civilisation goes from here.

Is the USA military actually capable of delivering any sort of proportionate justice for this? I mean, 20-30 terrorists in exchange for tens of thousands of innocents -how do you punish that and answer the need for vengeance that will burn in millions of breasts across America and the West?

With a few missiles and ineffective airstrikes? I don't think so. It really does need the "war" that bush and his advisors are talking about, but that really will shake the world order and take tremendous guts and resolve to make it happen - I hope it does.

Prior to tuesday I was quietly opposed to the private ownership of handguns and civilian gun proliferation .... now, well frankly, I feel that if anyone is going to wield weapons in sensitive environments it ought to be ordinary people not the crazies and fanatics. I find it absolutely heartbreaking to think of the passengers on those airliners rendered helpless by a rabble of fanatics with knives and cardboard-cutters.

Frankly, let reservists and civil authorities carry guns on airplanes from here on in ... If this "war" on terrorism is to be won then the ordinary guy on the street needs the tools to fight back.

And this from a British liberal ...

Well, I'm with you guys ...

[geoschmo]

quote:

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I asked him if England had a right to carpet bomb Northern Ireland or Ireland after a car bomb.

Know what the guy said.

Well that's different.

How I asked.

He would not answer.

That's too bad.

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I can give you hundreds of reasons why this is different. In the next few days and weeks I will be able to give you thousands, God forbid possibly tens of thousands of reasons why this is different.

This is not a simple act of terroism.
This is not a lunatic car bomb in market in Dublin.
This is not a lunatic with dynamite strapped to his body blowing up a bus in Tele Viv.
This is not a lunatic with a machine gun in Gaza.
This is not a lunatic with a truck full of fertalizer in Oklahoma City.

This was a well planed, well financed, well thought out attack.

It is not simply sabre rattling to say this is an act of war. It's a different kind of war to be sure, but it is a war nonetheless.

If a nation, any nation, can be shown to have been involved in this, even indirectly by simply allowing those guilty freedom of movement and the ability to train, then that nation can be, MUST be held responsible. Eqully responsible to those that took an active part in the actions.

Random bombing, no. But if it takes carpet bombing, if it takes battalions of soldiers, if it takes many mnay deaths, even the deaths of US soldiers, this cannot be allowed to stand.

The only way to prevent these acts is to make those responisble, even indirectly pay such a high price for their actions that others in the future will see the futility of these kinds of things.

Geoschmo

[Taqwus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mordante:
Well my world view changed on tuesday I can tell you. I'm British, and I watched the developing massacre live on BBC, and besides offering my sympathy and best regards to anyone who lost friends and family in those outrages, I am now seriously wondering exactly where our civilisation goes from here.

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Maybe not THAT much of a change in worldview. I seem to recall a decade or so ago, when plane and ship (remember the Achille Lauro?) hijackings were much more common and certain factions significantly more active -- the Abu Nidal group, Baeder-Meinhof (sp? Also known as Red Army Faction, IIRC), and others -- it was common practice for hijackers to demand passports, to allow them to single out Americans.

Some of these people have been pissed off at the United States for a long, long time, and perhaps with the Cold War over there are fewer barracks (in, say, Beirut) providing convenient targets.

quote:

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[/b]
Is the USA military actually capable of delivering any sort of proportionate justice for this? I mean, 20-30 terrorists in exchange for tens of thousands of innocents -how do you punish that and answer the need for vengeance that will burn in millions of breasts across America and the West?
[/b]

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You don't, really. You do, however, significantly boost HUMINT (human intelligence. It's broadly accepted, IIRC, that the US pays too much attention to ELINT/SIGINT (electronic / signals), and relies too much on its satellites and other technology, and far too little to human assets. The KGB was far better than its Western counterparts, albeit it was working with a far easier target -- an open society.

We also, hopefully, actually notice that airport security has been woefully pathetic in the United States. As recent as two weeks ago, airlines were still providing metal cutlery, for instance. A butter knife may not be serrated, but it's sure going to hurt jammed into somebody's jugular. And I've even had a laptop unquestioned, on a flight to Egypt no less.

The 4-inch rule for knives, which I didn't know about (my SAK -- a Ranger model, something like an 85mm non-locking blade IIRC -- always went in my checked-in luggage), doesn't seem terribly swift, either. I wouldn't relish being slashed with a 1-inch blade, let alone 4.

We probably pay much more attention to finding drugs than weaponry, which is remarkably complacent.

quote:

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With a few missiles and ineffective airstrikes? I don't think so. It really does need the "war" that bush and his advisors are talking about, but that really will shake the world order and take tremendous guts and resolve to make it happen - I hope it does.

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I think this may turn into a long-term conflict. Actually, it's *been* a long-term conflict, since we've been aiding other nations against terrorists for a long time -- providing training, sharing intelligence data, and so forth. More important than missiles are developing human assets to provide a better probability of warning, although I'm not too optimistic about the possibility of infiltrating fanatical Groups... assuming that most remaining Groups are not run by fools (and, to have survived this long, they probably are not) they are going to be careful about giving out operational details (IOW, compartmentalization) or even accepting people without having established clear bona fides.

Even if bin Laden showed up and publicly blew himself up in Times Square, it would not end there, anymore than the suicide bombings in Israel stopped after the Israelis managed to nab the one dubbed "the Engineer". Security is always an on-going process, and one in which an open society will necessarily have great difficulty.

quote:

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Prior to tuesday I was quietly opposed to the private ownership of handguns and civilian gun proliferation .... now, well frankly, I feel that if anyone is going to wield weapons in sensitive environments it ought to be ordinary people not the crazies and fanatics. I find it absolutely heartbreaking to think of the passengers on those airliners rendered helpless by a rabble of fanatics with knives and cardboard-cutters.

Frankly, let reservists and civil authorities carry guns on airplanes from here on in ... If this "war" on terrorism is to be won then the ordinary guy on the street needs the tools to fight back.

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They'd better have special ammo loads, then. I'm also not particularly thrilled at the idea of untrained "ordinary guys", incredibly paranoid (trivia: a local radio station reported that gun sales were up 15-30% at various gun stores nearby), packing heat in such an unfavorable area -- a narrowly confined region with plenty of innocent civillians, and unusually high potential negative consequences for stray shots. And I'm not even a Sikh (IIRC, they carry knives for religious reasons, and to an ignorant paranoid, might be mistaken for an Arab, headgear and all).

quote:

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And this from a British liberal ...

Well, I'm with you guys ...

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Deathstalker]

Don't know if anyone else saw this but it was reported on the DC Comics posting Boards with a link. There was a t-shirt place selling t-shirts with the logo 'I crashed into the world trade centre, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt'.....The poster on the comic board rallied people and soon hundreds were emailing in with their outrage at such a thing...The offending merchandise was removed....how anyone can take advantage of such a tragedy for profit is beyond me....The sad thing is in probally a year or two there will be a movie of the week or something.....

[Askan Nightbringer]

quote:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:


If a nation, any nation, can be shown to have been involved in this, even indirectly by simply allowing those guilty freedom of movement and the ability to train, then that nation can be, MUST be held responsible. Eqully responsible to those that took an active part in the actions.

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Now thats a big and dangerous statement.
Did the nation that
a) Trained and armed Iraqi soldiers
b) Supported Soharto when he murdered a MILLION people in his military coup, stating that this would be great for the "global" economy
c) Sent that ex-Panama dictator to military school

ever take some responsibility for those nutters.

I think not.
So how do you think the innocents in those cases felt?

I'm ashamed of my country's involvement in the original occupation of East Timor by Indonesia , and if some angry East Timorese blew up something in my city I'de be horrified, but I would understand where their anger came from (I wouldn't understand their anger, just where it came from).

The US should be looking at its foreign policy, and its citizens should be asking their government "Why would people do this to us?". Thats how you fix the problem.

Terrorism sux, but then all violence against innocents sux and is never justified.

Askan

[dogscoff]

*APPLAUSE* I fully agree with what the Baron has just said. As for the "Nice, sweet religion" debate... well islam is and it isn't. Like Christianity, it depends entirely on your interpretation of the holy scriptures.

Just look up a few different Christian factions on the web for examples- one set of people will find lines in the bible that clearly condemn homosexuality as wrong and evil. Another will find something else which says that God loves gay people. Take your pick. The bible says whatever you want it to say, as does pretty much any religious document, I imagine. (I think the same applies to the american constitution, BTW)

As an atheist I feel I can be fairly impartial here, and from where I'm standing, islam and christianity seem to be pretty much the same. What I mean is, they seem to produce the same kinds of people. We have a lot of muslims here in the UK and they are just regular people. Not bomb wielding fanatics, just normal people.

A few interesting facts on Islam:

- Islam is completely decentralised - there is no "Pope equivalent" or God-appointed hierarchy giving out orders to destroy western civilisation. The people who have issued Fatwas (ie against Salman Rushdie) were influential individuals, not religious leaders. Individual muslims are free to follow a Fatwa or ignore it. Muslim governments like the Taliban have no influence outside their own country and do NOT represent the muslim faith as a whole. No- one does.

-Fatwa does *NOT* translate as "death sentence". Jihad does *NOT* translate as "holy war".

- Christianity and islam are siblings, both offshoots of the Jewish faith. The difference is that muslims believe Mohammed was the Messiah and Christians think it was Jesus, about 1200 years earlier. Muslims still regard Jesus as an important prophet.
(The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah...)

- The koran (Qu'ran, whatever) advocates the peace and charity bit just as much as the bible ever did. All the "Thou shalt not kill" stuff is in there, and it is every Muslim's duty to give a certain percentage of their income to helping the less fortunate.


On a different subject...
I agree that it would be stupid putting guns on planes. There are alternatives though - Tasers are also a good idea, but a ranged weapon has obvious advantages. How about non-explosive guns (pneumatic/ catapult type weapons) firing tranquilisers? A crossbow even?

As for tranquilising the entire plane in an emergency situation... the main drawback there is that the dosage required to knock out a large hijacker would probably be dangerous/ fatal for a child or a baby or a passenger on medication. I understand that the safety of the entire plane / people on the ground is at stake, but those reasons would probably be enough to prevent any airline from using that strategy. (After all, if the only people likely to survive a hijacking were fit, healthy adults then they would sell a lot less tickets.)

0.02

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SE4 Code:
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/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[Puke]

while civilians should probably be armed, and should be educated about the safe and effective use of arms before being allowed to have or bear arms, its probably a very BAD idea to arm civilians for any specific purpose. its probably a MORONIC idea to let them have such arms on a commercial airplane. primarily because people are recationary, tend to panic, and even when not in a fight or flight situation, most people are just plain DUMB.

subways are different tho. everyone should have a gun on the subway. maybe two or three. they should be in safe places though, because i can invision alot of firearms theft if they are somewhere easy to reach when you are elbow to elbow with a dozzen faceless people.

[Exculcator]

quote:

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Originally posted by askan:

quote:
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Originally posted by geoschmo:

If a nation, any nation, can be shown to have been involved in this, even indirectly by simply allowing those guilty freedom of movement and the ability to train, then that nation can be, MUST be held responsible. Eqully responsible to those that took an active part in the actions.

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Now thats a big and dangerous statement.

Askan

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Indeed.
Wasn't it the US that created this monster Bin Laden in the first place?
Back when he was fighting the Soviet empire it was allright for him to murder, he got CIA training and support to do so. Now that he has turned against the American empire, it is a different matter.
America is indeed an empire, as Puke boldly states, and it IS imperialistic, in that it has dirtied it's hands in external affairs on numerous occasions. Askan's list is by no means complete. Besides actual dirty work there is huge pressure on nations to view and do things 'The American Way'.
To you and me the frase 'The American way' sounds like a good thing but to many others it certainly does not.
Many people bear a grudge against the US and it's supremacy. And 'resistance' has been going on for a long time. It just wasn't waged on American home soil and on such a scale.
Now, I am not saying that America is reaping what it has sown but it is indeed a war. A war that, seen from the other's viewpoint, could be regarded as a freedom fight against American dominance and they fight it as any other group has done in history, when they were confronted by a military machine many times superior. One calls them guerilla's or maquis or partisans the other calls them terrorists, bandits, rebels. It is an age old dilemma and it is now America's turn to wonder how to deal with such an enemy. Do you use oppression(turn the state into a police state) , retaliate(against Afghanistan?), search and destroy?
Very difficult indeed. Decisions not to be taken lightly.
None of us want to live in a police state like the old Soviet Union or the Third Reich, with propaganda and security ensuring that everebody sees things the 'right way'.
As for retaliation,Austria's decision to retaliate against Serbia, harbouring and supporting the assasins of their crown-prince, led to World War I. Please remember.

Maybe search and destroy remains the best option.Although it does not give you immediate satisfaction for the grief and horror of the attack, it does reduce the risk of creating even more hate and killing the wrong people.

my 2 cents, I guess.

[dogscoff]

QUOTE:
the rest of the world will owe us another debt of gratitude for d
/QUOTE

Is this really what you Americans believe? That the rest of the world owes you a favour because you (eventually) took part in the World Wars? You don't think 50 years of economic supremacy and the assimilation of half the planet into your mindset and culture is reward enough? Someone please tell me he's the only one...

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SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.