Newbish question

[GrudgeBringer]

Ok a couple of more questions (I am starting to understand like maybe 1/10th of everything...really)

Looking thru my posts I seem to have a theme that keeps rearing its ugly head.

I am not understanding the Pretender and what it can do, and because of that I am not understanding the more subtle magic because I am trying to play this game like Rome TW and win by a ground game.

So....

After much thought of how can a dummy (like me) ask the question that I needed answered the most in a way that others could understand and actually help me.....I broke down and asked my Girlfriend to compose the question (YES, part of the deal was that SHE get the credit...sigh).

Here goes..

1. I understand that in pretender creation the blesses he receives at that time are in effect immediately for sacred Units.

I don't think I really understand why Dom 10 is such a major factor if it is only an aura that surrounds HIM (pretender) and his ability to raise Dom where he goes as he can only be in one place at a time.

I have never actually seen the AWE effect and other than it being like a Super FEAR spell, or IF it is in effect for ALL its Commanders/Mages ect that are blessed from the start of the game and all the time in the game.

I guess I just don't understand all the hoopla...

It would seem to me that you could design a Pretender Killer type stack if only HE has those abilities.

When I am designing a pretender I ALWAYS seem to get hungup on the fact that MORE is better than QUICKER.

in other words, what has worked for me very well in other games is that I take and develop a STRONG central base and then conquer slowly and build a strong nation as I go.

You can't get 'behind' my lines because there are no lines....everything is very strong.

If I can make it to mid game then I can be a force (if I use the right diplomacy) because while I can be defeated I can wreck another nation while he is doing it to the point that HE is now a sitting duck.

That doesn't seem to be the case in this game from what i've read.

So, my pretenders have all been imprisoned so that I can get the BEST starting scales and most magic ect on my pretender.

I just can't seem to understand WHY that just isn't the way to do it...Best scales, good blesses, money/production/luck and a strong magic on my pretender when he awakens (on like turn 35 or something).

Could someone PLEASE take the time to explain why I am reading about an awake pretender when there are just NOT enough points to make a strong nation (in MY flawed estimation.

Maybe I am just not getting what this game is about so ANY suggestions on theory of the game is helpful as I REALLY enjoy this game I am just getting frustrated....

Thanks to ALL that have been so helpful!!

[Taqwus]

It depends on the game setup, including your neighbors.

If you're on a crowded, tiny map and your Niefelheim neighbors are sending N9E4-blessed Niefel giants in your direction immediately, you need something to kill them -- fast.

If you're on a tiny map where other sides are sacrificing scales for a rampaging pretender that will rapidly out-expand you, he'll have many more resources to crush you before your scales are likely to matter much.

If you're on a massive map with relatively few nations, and very strong independents, and it's late era (so fewer easily accessible monster sacred units running around), scales will matter more than in the earlier case.

[JimMorrison]

Well first, this game is all about different options, different strategies/tactics, and different abilities. So it's not "wrong" to have an imprisoned pretender, it just severely limits your own flexibility, and your understanding of the game, if you only play in the one fashion.

Now that we have that out of the way, just a note, blesses are not "automatic", there are sacred units, but only your prophet is constantly blessed, all other sacred units must be blessed during combat, and then it only lasts for the duration of that combat.

Dominion 10 isn't an end all be all trick. It works especially well for a pretender who already has Awe, as they stack, making it incredibly powerful in mitigating damage from most troops other than mindless units that have 30-50 morale. It does not work like fear, other than that the roll is taken against Morale. However, every unit MUST make an opposed roll of their Morale, vs your (Awe + 10) when they try to attack you. If they fail their roll, they fail to make an attack in that round. This is so valuable mostly in the early game, where a properly selected pretender can take 1 province every turn from the very start of the game, drastically increasing your expansion rate, giving you the economic base to crush people in the mid game and beyond.

This is a trade off, awake pretenders cost a LOT of design points (as points not gained by choosing dormant of imprisoned). But placing those points into scales, is for many nations much more of a mid game benefit, so if you don't have a strong early game growth plan, the player who has poor scales and an awake pretender will probably be so much larger than you, that they win the war 9/10 of the time against you, and probably with acceptable losses.

Then the third option, is to go for a bless strategy. Some nations make powerful use of blesses, some do not benefit from them much at all. You can sometimes do a single greater bless with a dormant pretender (and in a few cases it's possible with awake, but your scales will be AWFUL), but you will generally have to go imprisoned to do a dual bless. Often it works well to do a greater bless with a minor bless (usually the minor is nature for small regen, but not always), and in those cases you can typically just be dormant and still have -mediocre- scales.

In Dominions, if you try to fortify and shore up your position on a constant basis, your economy will bleed out, and you will grow far too slowly to be a threat to anyone later in the game. Perhaps they will avoid you because the reward for the effort is small, but you will never win that way, because someone far more aggressive than you will win much more quickly.


Typically, most games seem to be won through one or the other strong early game strategies - either they have an awake pretender who can make their empire grow twice as fast as you grow, or they imprison with a strong dual bless, and have incredibly powerful (and somewhat replenishable) sacred troops produce the same effect. This is why you hear so much about these things, because in MP, a "slow and steady" economic win through good scales and (nonstrategic) magic diversity, is not very common at all.


Hope that helps somewhat.

And remember, if you don't like that, there is no shame in just sticking with SP for the more laid back fun of the game, it's the route my roommate is taking, in fact.

[Wick]

Pretender design points can be spent for several purposes:
1) They can buy high dominion to recruit more sacred troops, spread dominion from temple checks faster, and with 9 or 10 have awe +0 or +2 on the pretender.
2) They can buy a SC in the early game that can grab independents and deter early rushes.
3) They can buy a mid/late SC which uses full equipment and spell buffs to destroy destroy armies. Sure, most SCs get killed eventually and each time you Call God his magic weakens but think of the destruction you can wreak first!
4) They can buy high magic to define a useful bless effect that priests can buff sacred units with.
5) They can buy high magic to cast powerful spells.
6) They can buy many paths of magic to add diversity to the national mages, research, and site search.
7) They can buy scales to produce more gold to buy mages, castles to recruit mages, troops, and temples.
8) They can buy scales that increase production to recruit more or better troops in the early game.
9) They can buy scales that improve random events.
10) They can buy scales that increase the research productivity of your mages.

These thing vary in importance with different nations and starting conditions so you are trying to find a balance that works for the game you are about to play. Try LA Ermor -- an awake pretender with at least D3 is a no-brainer and scales are mostly worthless.

[dirtywick]

GrudgeBringer said:

I don't think I really understand why Dom 10 is such a major factor if it is only an aura that surrounds HIM (pretender) and his ability to raise Dom where he goes as he can only be in one place at a time.

Your dominion does more than that. It can also be spread through having a priest unit preach, and through building temples. Dominion 10 is good because a high dominion is hard to remove through preaching or by building temples; you can actually spread your dominion into enemy lands. It's hardly necessary to start with it that high unless you're using a dominion reliant strategy, as building temples increases your max dominion. If you build enough temples you can get 10 dominion later.

Your continued survival in the game requires you to have some dominion somewhere. It doesn't matter how many provinces you control or how big your armies are, if your dominion is eroded through temples and preaching then you lose the game.

Of course, that's extremely difficult to do. Usually it happens if you have a strong dominion and you've conquored a lot of the enemy and their pretender and prophet are dead, then you can push your dominion over theirs and conquor the rest at your leisure. But there are some nations that excel at stealth preaching and lowering dominion and raising their own quickly.

When you look at the map, you'll see either white candles, black candles, or no candles. The white candles represent your dominion, the black an enemies, and no candles is no dominion. You can count the candles to figure out how much of your dominion is in a particular province, or how much of the enemies. Having your dominion in an enemy's lands also gives you a little information about the province, like what troops are there. Your dominion represents your scales. At full dominion you get full scales, at partial dominion you get partial scales.

The other effect dominion has is directly on your troops. I think fighting in friendly dominion gives a morale boost, and in enemy dominion a penalty. It also severely effects your pretender's and prophet's stats.

So a 10 dominion start isn't important unless you're trying to push your dominion onto your enemies. A moderate dominion is more reasonable.

I just can't seem to understand WHY that just isn't the way to do it...Best scales, good blesses, money/production/luck and a strong magic on my pretender when he awakens (on like turn 35 or something).

Could someone PLEASE take the time to explain why I am reading about an awake pretender when there are just NOT enough points to make a strong nation (in MY flawed estimation.

Well, the first thing to say here is your pretender is often your best unit period. Maybe if you took a wyrm with no magic or something that wouldn't be the case, but even then late game summons are all that will come close, if at all.

I play TW games too, so it's like having a 10 star general, except the power difference is even more vast. Like a queen in chess, except it can shoot fire and spit acid at the pawns.

Your pretender can do a lot of things; conquer provinces on it's own, cast the most powerful spells, forge the best equipment, it depends on what form you choose and what magic you give it.

So if you've got it imprisoned, you're going a pretty long time without your best unit. Giving it all that high magic isn't much use until it's in play.

The other thing is the best scales and high magic in certain paths are dependant on what you're researching and what nation you're playing. So you really need to evaluate that when designing your pretender, because it is your best unit and you want to play to it's strengths, and also play your scales to your nations strengths, and then find a middle ground.

For instance, Kailasa doesn't have many high resource troops, so taking production 3 just because it's a "good" scale is a waste of a lot of points, you simply won't use the resources, so take sloth instead. But the mages are expensive gold wise, so you want some order for gold. Order reduces the chances of random events, so you could tip your scale towards misfortune. That's one good scale and two bad scales, see what I'm saying?

Then you have a lot of points to both keep the pretender awake and get some magic on it, because Kailasa could really use a good bless and early expansion help.

Once you get to mid-game and see what worked and what didn't, what you need immediately, and refine your strategy and plan for mid-game and late game in pretender design once you've got a handle on how things work.

[capnq]

Wick said: Pretender design points can be spent for several purposes:
1) They can buy high dominion to recruit more sacred troops, spread dominion from temple checks faster, and with 9 or 10 have awe +0 or +2 on the pretender.

Actually, there's a tradeoff between strength and speed of spread. Higher dominion spreads slower because it takes longer to "fill" a province before it "spills over" to an adjacent province.

[thejeff]

Just a note about dominion 9-10 Awe on the pretender: It doesn't work best with a pretender who already has awe, though the stacking helps. It works best with a pretender who has Fear, since Fear reduces the morale of everyone around him. It really can be impressive.

But don't take our word for it. Try it out. It's hard to get the effectiveness of SCs until you've played with them. Take an awake Dom10 Wyrm with no magic, put him in the back of the field scripted "hold,hold,hold,attack" and send him out solo on the first turn. You can still have good scales, but now you'll be expanding faster the gold comes pouring in faster, you'll have full resources in your capital sooner, etc, etc.

[Loren]

thejeff said:
Just a note about dominion 9-10 Awe on the pretender: It doesn't work best with a pretender who already has awe, though the stacking helps. It works best with a pretender who has Fear, since Fear reduces the morale of everyone around him. It really can be impressive.

But don't take our word for it. Try it out. It's hard to get the effectiveness of SCs until you've played with them. Take an awake Dom10 Wyrm with no magic, put him in the back of the field scripted "hold,hold,hold,attack" and send him out solo on the first turn. You can still have good scales, but now you'll be expanding faster the gold comes pouring in faster, you'll have full resources in your capital sooner, etc, etc.

Why hold, hold, hold? What does that accomplish?

[Amhazair]

Loren said:

Why hold, hold, hold? What does that accomplish?

Often it's not really crucial, but it means that if your (indy) opponent has troops of two different speeds (like knights and infantry) they will become strung out and fail to attack you at the same time. It might also mean that enemy archers are farther away from you when you get into melle, and thus have less chance to damage you.

Of course, this applies against independents (and PD). Human players tend to try and co�rdinate their armies.

[JimMorrison]

thejeff said:
Just a note about dominion 9-10 Awe on the pretender: It doesn't work best with a pretender who already has awe, though the stacking helps. It works best with a pretender who has Fear, since Fear reduces the morale of everyone around him. It really can be impressive.

According to the manual, your results are not due to the mechanics working as you state.

A Fear effect does not reduce the morale of nearby enemies. It forces a morale check each round, with a penalty equal to the Fear bonus, causing a rout if the check is failed.

Ergo it has no directly synergistic effect with Awe, it just happens that if you have a high enough fear effect to easily rout PD within the first few combat rounds, any awe at all will give you a good shot at surviving with minimal damage.


If the manual is totally full of it, then I will consent, but the description seems to very much differentiate it from other morale checks.

And anyway, in my experience, the potential of Awe+7 with Virtue, is an incredibly powerful tool. It gives you a strong effect even up to elite infantry with 15 morale. This essentially makes her nearly invincible against all normal troops, which is an advantage that continues to be leveragable through the entire game (though she's a poor raider against say R'lyeh, with their lobo guard PD).