War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[Baron Munchausen]

quote:

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Originally posted by dmm:
I can't help but rebut some comments posted here. Here goes:
1) Israel's military occupation of the West Bank began after they defeated a bunch of enemies, INCLUDING THE PALESTINIANS, who tried to push them into the sea. Question for all you SEIV players: What do you do with a defeated enemy? Give him all his planets back, and no apology necessary?
2) This occupation has not been brutal, as alleged on this forum. In fact, the West Bank has seen unprecedented prosperity over the Last 34 years. The West Bank Palestinians are much wealthier than the Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians. And it wouldn't have gone on for 34 years if the PLO and other Palestinian Groups had not made it their mission to destroy Israel.
3) To compare the "intifada" casualties to the recent US deaths is pure BS. First, most of the intifada deaths either occurred during a riot or were assassinations of known terrorists (or harborers of terrorists). Innocent civilian deaths, although certainly tragic, have been a small minority. Second, the numbers of intifada deaths, innocent or otherwise, do not approach 30,000, not even after 34 years of supposedly brutal military occupation.
4) To compare the economic casualties of the intifada to the recent US destruction is pure BS. The whole West Bank isn't worth one World Trade Center tower.

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Now, to deal with your other comments (though this will appear before the comment on your final remark...)

You first four points actually are one single point. And not a pleasant one.

Actually, Israeli occupation begins in 1948. They NEVER HAD ANY RIGHT to the land to begin with. It's been one long invasion, just like the creation of the United States from the 'new' world, that just happened to have several million inconveniant natives. Do you challenge the historical record that the Palestinians had been living there for centuries? Or are they the wrong color to have rights to land they've occupied for centuries? They were trying to 'push them into the sea' because they CAME FROM THE SEA. They were invaders. The SE IV analogy is just as relevant on the other foot. How do you deal with an invader? Give him your territory with a smile and wander off to die? Or fight back?

The small technical differences between the Israeli occupation and some other historical parallels, that the Palestinians have not been slaughtered en masse but piecemeal, or that the people who are courageous enough to resist openly are more likely to get shot hardly makes it morally right. Living in this media-saturated age, they know they can't get away with open mass-murder. If not for the ubiquity of cameras, I have little doubt they'd find ways to reduce the population of Palestinians more quickly.

But you really betray the vulgar American mindset that makes people angry by your final comment. The 'value' of the West Bank is irrelevant. These people want the right to live their own lives, with self-determination and dignity, not performing menial labor for Israelis at pittance wages when their mood is good, and cowering in the ramshackle homes their wages can buy when their mood is bad. Human dignity is not about money, and having a lot of it doesn't make a stupid dork a better human being. Both Israelis and Americans are unable to deal effectively with the Arabs (of which the Palestinians are just one sub-division) precisely because they cannot think of them as anything but grubby primitives who don't know their place. Until this attitude changes, both nations are going to continue to have problems like the intifada and the WTC event. Not that such behavior is "justifiable" but it is pretty much inevitable when you oppress people that some of them will snap and start doing crazy things. Unfortunately, as usually happens with violence, the propogation is mostly random. The 'revenge' of some twisted true believer will end up hitting other innocents rather than the actual oppressor. The thousands of office workers in the WTC are hardly responsible for US foreign policy supporting Israeli conquest. I can only hope that the US does not continue the cycle, but takes considerable care to properly identify the individuals behind this WTC attack and acts intelligently to punish only those individuals.


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 12 September 2001).]

[LazarusLong42]

Quick PBW note: PBW games have been set to turn over only after all turns have been uploaded, in case any players are unavailable. Also, the PBW front page has some links that may be useful in this time of crisis... although those same links are pretty much everywhere now.

LL

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Puke:
as for explosive decompression, its only explosive when you have gaping holes ripped into the plane. and low calibur sidearms, especially with frangible or hollowpoint rounds, would probably be stopped by the fusealage. tazers, shock batons, KO gas (even in a canister delivered by the skycop) or gel rounds would be perfectly effective. I would stand by bullets tho, they have a long track record for getting the job done, and sometimes the risks are sufficient to mandate their use.

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Dude, the reason they call it "explosive" decompression is that the hole starts out small, and gets bigger, real fast.

And even low velocity rounds will penetrate an airplanes fusealage. Commercial aircraft fuselages are designed with the least amount and lightest material available. It's not exactly reynolds wrap or anything, but is itn't much better. They aren't designed to stop bullets. A bullet that can't puncture an aircraft fuselage would break your skin to be sure, but it isn't going to have any stopping power against a person detemined to cause you bodily harm.

And even if you had the "magic bullet" that kills people and won't punch holes in the side of the plane, you haven't answered how one guy is going to stop a team of terrorists.

On at least one of the planes hijacked yesterday, the flight crew kept the cockpit locked, but opened it up when the terrorists started hurting stewardesses and passengers. What's to stop a aircop from succumbing to the same demand?

It's just not a workable solution. Sorry. That's why they stopped doing it, as much as the money reasons.

Skycops are just not an effective deterant against this kind of terrorism. They may make the passengers feel safer, but they don't actually make them safer.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 12 September 2001).]

[Puke]

no. it might be explosive as you describe on a space shuttle, but there is not enough of a pressure differential on a commercial flight to rend the plane appart. the times where there have been problems is when something has taken a chunk out of the plane and the wind sheer has torn it appart. even if bullets are not used, there are plenty of non lethal methods a skycop could use, and even if he is not a superhero, the presence of one would help to discourage would be terrorists. sure they might give into the same pressures that caused the pilots to unlock the door, but its better than nothing. I think having a guy with a gas canister is the best idea anyone has had.

sufice to say, we dont have those now, and nothing we come up with is going to save the dead folks on those four airplanes. now is the time for us to become the pig of a nation that everyone hates us for. to help the political parties that we favor at the moment overthrow those that are currently inconvinent to us. now is when we should be working to dismantle ideologies that work against our best interests, and to setup new puppet governments that will hopefully serve us better than the Last batch. no matter how many kinder more sensitive advocates for individual rights chime up about basic human values, thats what we are going to do, and keep doing. America is an Empire, and so are all of our NATO allies. people only point to us in distaste because they dont like looking at themselves.

[Hotfoot]

Solutions to problems with the sleeping gas problem:

-ensure that the essential crew, pilots, co-pilots, navigators, all have an independant air supply in the case of an emergency. Even their drop-down oxygen masks could be modified for the job.

-give pilots catheder bags. I think there's a john near the cockpit anyway. You could seal off everything after that.

-if for some reason the pilots are incapacitated as well, use the regular update code I mentioned earlier. If the pilots get knocked out, autopilots take over and level the plane out and keep it locked at a specific "safe" altitude.

[tesco samoa]

I am just back from one of the most frustrating days of work.

I almost lost it today.

All I heard was this country should pay. Bomb the F*&^ers back to the stone age. Bah Bah Bah.

Damn Stupid Ignorant People.

I walked up to one guy and told him that I resented what he was saying. First words were "You ******* have some Respect."

I then told him that as being an Irish Man I resented this Racial Sterotyping.

I asked him if England had a right to carpet bomb Northern Ireland or Ireland after a car bomb.

Know what the guy said.

Well that's different.

How I asked.

He would not answer.

That's too bad.

I hope cooler heads prevail in this.

Bombing a country and killing more innocent people is not the right answer.

If I offended anyone with this post I am truely sorry. That was not the intent of this post. I am just a little angry and want to vent some steam. And I trust the people in this forum to take it in stride.

If you feel I was wrong doing what I did today. That is ok. I understand. But I hope you understand why I did it as well.

May this post find you in good health and improving spirits.



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[LazarusLong42]

Tesco, I dare say cooler heads will prevail on the large scale. People like the ******* you spoke to rarely have any more political/military power than being a low-grade NCO or a police lieutenant.

Unfortunately, that sort of person may go around shooting up mosques, as has now happened at least once. I merely hope that the police and the justice system treat these people as exactly what they are--common criminals--rather than turning the other way while it happens.

LL

[Hotfoot]

Tesco: I agree with you. Frankly, I'm saddened by all the people I know who are saying "bomb the ****ing ****wits."

It really is not a bright moment for the world.

[tesco samoa]

it's scary seeing the world change. and it did change. Only time will show if it will get better or worse. Take care everyone.
I am off to have a pint with my dad and talk about our hero's ( Soccer, football hockey and movies) maybe with a little more vigor than usual. But it will be a good distraction. Talk to you all tomorrow.

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[AJC]

The world did change yesterday - and I think we can safely say that the view of the world changed for the average American, and not for the better.
There cannot and never will be justice derived from "getting" the terrorists who killed apparently thousands of people in the attacks yesterday. Putting these people on trial, in Jail, killing them, or bombing the host countries into the stone age will never bring justice- for there is no Justice in war.

It is unfortunate that in the coming days people who are just as innocent as those killed in NYC will most likely be killed in some country across the world. It is a sad day for all of humanity.

What happen to our country yesterday is unacceptable and right or wrong , vengence will be visited on the perpertrators and their host countries. I grieve for all those who have died and will die in the coming days and months.
In my entire 36 years of life I have never seen my fellow Americans so enraged. I have seen people waving flags on overpasses, flags going up at homes, men and women crying silently in anger and I am watching the shock of yesterday turn to a simmering rage, much like what you hear happened in the USA after Pearl Harbor. These terrorist have awakened a sleeping giant, the American population, and they have made a terrible miscalculation. When will people learn that nothing changes because of these acts of violence visited on innocents, they only intensify the issues at hand. . .
Some have compared yesterday to Pearl Harbor - I say its worse. Pearl Harbor was horrible - but it was an attack on military targets by an enemy with a face. Yesterday was an act of violence by worthless cowardly people- who have visited destruction on our neighbors, friends, Moms, Dads, Brothers and sisters. The people who committed these acts are people who are so small that they cannot think for themselves, Instead they are manipulated by individuals who themselves sit in the shadows, in the comfort and safety of their homes while these poor misguided souls do their dirty work for them.
God help us all in the coming weeks.
My thoughts prayers go out to the people of NYC and Washington DC.



[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 13 September 2001).]