vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+ ?

[Agrajag]

kasnavada said:
The battle system would have to change so it can support it.

So basically, completely redesigning and implementing one of the most basic parts of the game?
This (well, all of your change, really) will not happen in a patch. Dom4 is not anywhere in sight (ie it isn't even planned to be released sometimes eventually in the uncertain future).
So why bother with it?
I can understand that it's fun to fantasize, but you have to realize and understand that this is just a fantasy.

[Kuritza]

triqui said:

I think the problem is not that they are mindless. The problem is that they are leaderless. Golems are mindless i think, but vanish on turn 50.

AFAIK golems vanish on turn 75, when all troops get autokilled. So nonmindless leaderless troops still might rout, it has to be checked.

[kasnavada]

I've been saying that it won't happen since the start. Check post #592492 : "It could require (a lot of) work from the devs". My next posts also say it :
(autoquote)
"That is ONE solution among many that make it work. It could require too much changes to game mechanics. I propose it anyway, who knows, maybe it'll be there for dominions 4."
"I hope that this time I won't get stupids answers like "you change the game" or "it's not going to be this way because it requires too much work", because it's off-topic."

I don't have the vanity to decide whether the adjustements would really require too much work, however. I've never seen or modified the dominions 3 code, after all.

If you say "it won't happen because the workload could be too much", I would just have said yes, and left the matter pass as I intended. If someone says "it doesn't work because the workload is too important", it's simply wrong. A solution can work even if it is not put in place, even if another one is better. For example, you can cross an ocean with a plane, a boat, a bridge, or a tunnel. The tunnel and bridge will probably never be put into place because it would take too much ressources, but the tunnel and bridge solution still works regarless.

I didn't answer again and again because I want this solution to be in the game. I answered because the arguments that were put to silence it were wrong.

[Agrajag]

I'm not saying you said something that is incorrect, but are you sure that multiplayer-daydreaming about Dom4 is really on topic in a thread about VotD?

[kasnavada]

Yes, it belongs here, since it does solve what others and I see as the "problem" in VotD as a side effect. The time limit problem.

I agree that it's not enough to monopolise the discussion for pages though. I didn't intend to have to explain how it worked for pages, but had to because someone didn't get the difference between "it won't happen" and "it doesn't work".

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

Some people here are not natives (myself included). Using the right words for the right meaning avoids pointless misunderstandings, especially on a forum.

[triqui]

Agrajag said:
Here's a question for ya kasnavada, what happens when a third nation attacks a contested province?

point, game, set and match.

And that's just the point of the iceberg of the several and several bugs and complications you could get just becouse you try to introduce a *completelly unnecessary* mechanism to fix something that *is not what is broken*

Start to think about how many complications you could find: several nations fighting there, several ritual combat spells there, people entering an breaking sieges, etc.

What about this?
instead of a third army joining the battle (which would be "solved" by the army entering the battle from a side), TEN different armies join the fight. From 10 different nations (using flying, teleport, cloudtrapeze, and what not). How do you put them in combat? 3 x side?

Or what about this:

2 armies fighting a contested province, in a long, draw battle (2 strong SC very hard to kill). Suddenly, one of the players attepmt an assasination. That also becomes a locked battle. Other player (from a third nation if you want), cast vengance of the dead, which target the same SC. It also becomes a lock battle. So now we have a character that is fighting THREE DIFFERENT locked battles in the SAME PROVINCE, for SEVERAL MONTHS. And we have not even started to playtest it with the really complicated issues.

What about if 10 assasins try to assasinate the same SC, which happen to lock the first one battle. Do the assasins stay there sitting on a rock waiting their turn? do they gangbang the SC (assasins should fight alone) Do the SC enter 10 different locked battles?

Sorry to burst your bubble again but *it doesn't work*. Doesn't. In present tense. It *might* work in another game (be it dominions 4 or The sims 3). In this game, with this ruleset, it does not work.

[triqui]

Rathar said:
My apologies, I trust you will understand what I mean when I say that my impulsive original statement did not include such words as weenie but rather worse terms for the male genitalia.

I, myself, didnt find it an insult. I understood it as it was, so no problem from me there.

[thejeff]

Nah, he's right, technically. There are workarounds, or fiat solutions for all these issues. It could be made to work.

But it's a huge fundamental change to the way dominions combat works, that would introduce all sorts of unforeseeable weirdnesses and exploits, in addition to whatever you think of here. All for the sake of fixing a small isolated problem with much simpler solutions.

And it's not going to be implemented anyway.

So can we please stop talking about it.

You're arguing semantics now. Is it theoretically possible? Yes. It is at all practical? No.

[Agrajag]

kasnavada said:
Yes, it belongs here, since it does solve what others and I see as the "problem" in VotD as a side effect. The time limit problem.

Then I will disagree, will then state that perhaps this is better suited to a thread like "Dom4 wishlist" and conclude by leaving the issue before this thread becomes too much of a meta-thread

[kasnavada]

Then I will disagree, will then state that perhaps this is better suited to a thread like "Dom4 wishlist" and conclude by leaving the issue before this thread becomes too much of a meta-thread

Well, somewhere above, someone said that this issue about VotD was discovered and debated during dominions 2, so... putting a wish that could possibly be granted only for dominions 4 didn't seem strange to me.

Sorry all for monopolising the thread for so long about a side issue, now that I got answers from other people, I've nothing to add. Whoever reads will have enough information to make it's own decision.