Exploit question

[Baalz]

Kuritza - if you can't get a game with certain settings/mods/rules (including plain vanilla) to start then it's pretty self evident that there aren't many people who want to play that way. Unfortunately this community is fairly small so you either have to roll with what most people are playing or beat the bushes to drum up some interest for what you want to play. Complaining that nobody wants to play the way you do is a bit silly. Maybe some other settings might be more to your liking while also appealing to more players: have you considered more common magic sites, easy research or money/resource multiples to "increase your options"? A game like this (Utopia) is just starting now...

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by Graeme Dice

No it's not. If clams are available for mass production, and if the game will last more than the time for their cost to be paid off, then any other use of gems is suboptimal. If one option is clearly the best choice, then the other options might as well not exist. Who would make two water elemental bottles when you could instead make one clam of pearls?

I'd have to quibble with that, though I agree overall. If you win battles/survive/take more territory because of those bottles water/Frost Brands/whatever, then they may not be suboptimal. Clams are optimal in the long run, but other investments may have a much shorter payoff, or a shorter window of opportunity (Water Queens?)
There's an opportunity cost to investing in the long term.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

It doesnt reduce your options, it increases them dramatically - at the cost of, yes, being forced to make gemgens. It just silly to say that having more gems narrows your available options, so I wont even explain why its wrong.

On the one hand, from a decision theory perspective, removing an option which dominates all other options can increase the *interesting* set of options and thus the strategic complexity of the game.

One the other hand, producing gem gens does not dominate all other options because there are times (i.e. you're under attack) when making more gem gens is a bad investment, just as there are times in Bloons Tower Defense 4 when buying more banana farms is a bad investment because you need the firepower NOW.

On the gripping hand, I personally hate clams even in SP. I feel oddly compelled to forge them because they're so clearly optimal most of the time--I can only imagine how much worse the temptation/pressure is in MP. I've got mixed feelings about bloodstones--I wish there were a way to remove only the gemgen aspect.

-Max

[Dimaz]

Well, in the game I played last year it was just as you say, in the end it was me with over 200 provs and Executor who had about half as many, but he was EA Ctis and clammed like crazy while I (LA Ctis) was conquering the world. In the end I had about 400 converted astral/turn but he had Nexus and FotA up, so we had some nice battles and finally he won with GoH-Armageddon combo because he had more gems than me (999 dispels/recasts were not uncommon there). So I know what are you talking about but still I'm against such changes. About making our own mod - hehe, this mod already exists and is called CBM 1.5 Actually I prefer vanilla game (heresy!), but 1.5 was also fine. I see no reason to argue with the community here and actually I was going to start some sort of "nostalgia" no-mods game after I'm finished with in some of my current games but it seems I'm going to stay for a while in them.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Baalz

Kuritza - if you can't get a game with certain settings/mods/rules (including plain vanilla) to start then it's pretty self evident that there aren't many people who want to play that way. Unfortunately this community is fairly small so you either have to roll with what most people are playing or beat the bushes to drum up some interest for what you want to play. Complaining that nobody wants to play the way you do is a bit silly. Maybe some other settings might be more to your liking while also appealing to more players: have you considered more common magic sites, easy research or money/resource multiples to "increase your options"? A game like this (Utopia) is just starting now...

It still boils down to ZEEEEEEEEEEERGGGGG!!!!! gameplay.

Why? Because there is no alternate source of income. If you are denied land, you die, as simple as that. If somebody invested heavily in early ZEEEEEERGGG!!! and got noobish neighbours, and you got stuck with some Pangaea gaeaey who turtled in his unbreakable castles with endless maenads, you lose automatically.
In Setsumi I struggle ONLY because I have gemgens. Were it down to whoever has more units, HECK, there wouldnt be even a fraction of a chance against LA Ermor who controls half the map.

Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.

I dont complain that nobody wants to play the way I prefer; I complain that some guys decided for everyone that from now on this game will not be Dominions I have come to like. They made decision for me. And since CBM was already popular, of course most players (who would be rather indiffirent to the topic otherwise) went with the flow.
But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

P.S.

By the way, regarding Utopia - Dimaz can confirm, I was laughing like MAD at that very game. 250% gold, 250% resources, no gemgens, Ashdod banned. Lots of gold and heaps of resources, can I say Dai Oni hacking to bits everything while Bakemono mages find more or less all sites possible?

[Baalz]

Slow day today, guess I'll respond even though we're falling into troll country.

Originally Posted by Kuritza

It still boils down to ZEEEEEEEEEEERGGGGG!!!!! gameplay.

...

Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.

That's just ridiculously false. Obviously you're constrained throughout the game as to what you can do, but your province count is only one factor. Who is in a stronger position when an earlyish war starts? The guy who:
Went with a blistering initial expansion and has the most provinces?
or the guy who...
Went with strong scales and a moderate expansion and has the most gold income?
or the guy who...
Invested in castles instead of expansion and has 3 times as many forts?
or the guy who...
Invested in research rather than expansion?
or the guy who...
Went with early site searching and has the most gems?
or the guy who...
invested in a heavy bless for thugs that didn't help much with initial expansion but are now coming into their own?
etc. etc.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing....that it's not fair to have to use monkeys when playing Bandar Log as the game progresses? If that's so objectionable don't play Bandar Log, and you might even change your mind if somebody shows you some stuff you hadn't considered.

Originally Posted by Kuritza

But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

Again, I don't quite follow your logic. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing with or without any mods you want other than finding similar minded people to play with. Nobody decided what EVERYONE will play...other than EVERYONE.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually the point is still worth making and clearly defining who and how many are more for the joy of variety than the idea of everyone playing one way. Earlier I was accused of almost vigilante attacks against cbm which rather surprised me. Its not like I dive into every game-start thread to preach against cbm. I tend to show up when someone (actually mostly just one or two people) show up and tell the game op that all mp games use cbm or should use cbm. They do this even when they proclaim at the same time that they dont plan to play in that game. Particularly irritating when its games involving some variant other than last-one-standing where balance does not necessarily win over game play.

The fact that some of the generally recognized trend-setters in the community are so outspoken against the fostering of such an impression might help to go far in allowing some more variant games where mod selection, if left up for discussion at all, will fall into the realm of please and thankyou.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

I dont complain that nobody wants to play the way I prefer; I complain that some guys decided for everyone that from now on this game will not be Dominions I have come to like. They made decision for me. And since CBM was already popular, of course most players (who would be rather indiffirent to the topic otherwise) went with the flow.
But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

The fact that some of the generally recognized trend-setters in the community are so outspoken against the fostering of such an impression might help to go far in allowing some more variant games where mod selection, if left up for discussion at all, will fall into the realm of please and thankyou.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm really struggling to understand what you meant by this.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Sombre

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

Just read what Gandalf above you said. Perhaps you have better understanding than Rdonj.
CBM was actively promoted; people were directly told that no game should start without CBM, and vanilla games are terrible. Opinion has been forced, it worked.