Halt Heretic - Opinions

[Edi]

Machakans also have a higher base mapmove, they are the only nation to have mapmove 3 normal human infantry. And with forestry to boot.

[B0rsuk]

Some more thoughts on new Ulm...

1. I don't like the whole concept of Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard. Was the intention to make Ulm into something they oppose - an evocation-based nation ? I think Ulm should get spells which are more fitting. Buffs, summons, etc. Ulm already has hard-hitting ranged units - Arbalests. They may not be very efficient as archers, sadly, but they can hold their own in melee. Today 20 of my ulmish PD stopped the earthquake+troglodytes event. If you want to give Ulm ranged weapons, just make Arbalests reasonable investment. How about making arbalests pierce shields ? They are supposed to be Heavy crossbows !

2. Priest Smith is a bit too good. 9 out of 10 master smiths are strictly worse than a priest smith. I would switch their paths - make Priest Smith FFE instead of EEF . From thematic point of view, it could be said they're burning with faith or something equally corny. That would 1) make them older, giving Master Smiths an advantage 2) widen the difference between the both 3) Make each of them distinctive 4) Give Ulm slightly wider choice of magic.
As it is, MA Ulm is THE Iron Faith of Dom3. The Priests are significantly stronger in MA than MA.

3.bug: PD gets usual priest instead of black acolyte. Ulm can't even recruit a regular priest anymore.
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Old stuff:

Ulm has a bad choice of weapons. It makes them distinctive, yes, but why would I recruit infantry with hammers ? Length 1 ? A lot of their attacks will get parried, and each such attack adds what, 9 fatigue ? What good is Heavy armour if you can't deal damage ? I can see the point of black plates for unshielded infantry, but I think shields on black plates is overkill. You're going to use those shields mostly against archers anyway. You sacrifice too much weapon power by equipping a tower shield.

Battleaxes and mauls (len 3) are nearly identical. I think one of them should go. Battleaxe is better because it doesn't have -1 to defence. But it also costs 2 res more. Ulm soldiers are so clumsy they (probably) are getting hit all the time anyway, so it's probably better to recruit mauls. If it was up to me, I would remove battleaxe Ulm infantry.

I think my complaints about Ulm weapons come from one source: in my opinion, weapons cost too few resources. Armour should cost less (to balance it), and weapons - more. That would make weapon choices more meaningful. I would consider hammers if they costed quite a bit less resources than morningstars, but as it is now, why bother ? You can usually get much better weapon for marginal increase in resources.

[Endoperez]

B0rsuk said:
Some more thoughts on new Ulm...

1. I don't like the whole concept of Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard.

2. Priest Smith is a bit too good.

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Old stuff:

Ulm has a bad choice of weapons. It makes them distinctive, yes, but why would I recruit infantry with hammers ? Length 1 ? A lot of their attacks will get parried, and each such attack adds what, 9 fatigue ? What good is Heavy armour if you can't deal damage ? I can see the point of black plates for unshielded infantry, but I think shields on black plates is overkill. You're going to use those shields mostly against archers anyway. You sacrifice too much weapon power by equipping a tower shield.

Battleaxes and mauls (len 3) are nearly identical. I think one of them should go. Battleaxe is better because it doesn't have -1 to defence. But it also costs 2 res more. Ulm soldiers are so clumsy they (probably) are getting hit all the time anyway, so it's probably better to recruit mauls. If it was up to me, I would remove battleaxe Ulm infantry.

1) Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard are the first steps towards Malediction and LA Ulm. They ARE steps away from what Ulm represents. However, they are on the exact same levels as Magma Bolts and Magma Eruption, which Master Smiths would use any way - so they don't actually do that much more.

2) Priest Smiths is capital-only, so the difference isn't that great. In addition, Priest Smiths will get a bit older in the next patch, whenever it comes. The problem, if there is one, was noted in the beta, but the patch was released without the alterations (to Priest Smith and some descriptions) to fix the scale bug mk 2.

Weapons:
- I regularly choose Battleaxes over Mauls. Every point helps, IMO, and units with heavy weapons or high strength aren't usually that accurate. Difference between 3 higher and 4 higher attack is 6%, or about one in 20 hits being a miss.
- I also regularly choose shielded troops over unshielded. Morningstars are good against enemy shields, and they're pretty good weapons any way. Hammers are very poor in Dominions because they can't deal enough damage to penetrate armor. AFAIK, real-life mauls weren't used as battlefield weapons, and real-life warhammers looked more like picks that punched through the armor. Maces and such had enough momentum to crush bones through armor (enough damage to deal damage through protection).

I'd like to see shields' protection values weakened a bit (perhaps -5 across the board), and damage of all "heavy" weapons increased a bit (3-4 points). 12 damage battleaxe + 11 strength against 14 prot +10 shield would be able to deal damage, but knights' 18+10 shield would still be quite safe.

Plate Armor was changed towards what Arralen had done in his mod, so perhaps instead of talking we should do competing "better armor balance" mods and stary lobbying.

[johan osterman]

B0rsuk said:
Some more thoughts on new Ulm...

1. I don't like the whole concept of Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard. Was the intention to make Ulm into something they oppose - an evocation-based nation ? I think Ulm should get spells which are more fitting. Buffs, summons, etc. Ulm already has hard-hitting ranged units - Arbalests. They may not be very efficient as archers, sadly, but they can hold their own in melee. Today 20 of my ulmish PD stopped the earthquake+troglodytes event. If you want to give Ulm ranged weapons, just make Arbalests reasonable investment. How about making arbalests pierce shields ? They are supposed to be Heavy crossbows !
...

Who said that Ulm opposes evocations?

[B0rsuk]

johan osterman said:
Who said that Ulm opposes evocations ?

Ulm has a small number of small(tightly packed) and expensive units. This means that an area spell covers much larger percentage of their army than it would be the case for another nation(relying on higher number of units). This is further amplified that Ulm infantry moves very slowly on the battlefield. So not only enemy mages get more out of their area spells, but are also able to cast more of them before both armies clash.
Small number of units also makes them more vulnerable to single target spells.
Bottom line: Ulm would be vulnerable to magic even without explicit -1 to MR. I think the penalty is just an overkill.
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There's something wrong about EA Ulm. Nowhere does it say (Not even unit descriptions !) that EA Ulm fears magic. In fact, EA Ulm is affected by Drain ! EA Ulm has quite high magic and lots of randoms, even on smiths. Lots of variety. And... 8 MR ? Why ? In EA Ulm, mages seem to be easily accepted part of the society. If anything, MA Ulm should have lower MR than EA Ulm, because they've lost lots of their magic, Drain is coming, etc.
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Ulm progression through eras is really strange. I think MA Ulm -> LA Ulm is ok from thematic point of view. But if I was new to Dom3, my guess would be that Transylwania Ulm belongs in MA and Tin Can Ulm is from LA. LA Ulm has more magic, light and medium infantry, as well as heavies. But ok...
Now look at EA Ulm -> MA Ulm. Almost no sense of connection except for smithing discount ! Very different tactics (ambushes), magic, military, even weapons used. It would be hard to guess they're ancestors of MA Ulm. 1 Era later, Ulm is radically transformed AND already abandoning the "old ways" of "no magic" ? Master smiths already falling out of grace and Black Priests quite prominent ? I think MA Black Order looks stronger than the one from LA.
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Endoperez:

Battleaxes might be a little better in some cases (and certainly better against elephants) but the difference is quite marginal. 6% you say ? About 1/20 . If you choose cheaper mauls over battleaxes, 2 resource less per soldier means you get 13 maulers per 12 battleaxes. Also quite marginal. My main point is, it's too redundant and it would be much more interesting to have entriely different weapon in its place. MA Ulm is interesting because they don't use any swords...how about a kopesh ? ;-)

What's really bad about hammer infantry is that, to my knowledge, they are affected by the same parry laws as everyone else. Infantry in very heavy armour AND with heavy shields shouldn't be so afraid of enemies with longer weapons. They have biiig shields to parry and unusually heavy armour. Yes, I know blck plates have +1 morale now(and it helps against longer weapons) but LOTS of units of other nations have morale this high or even higher, so it hardly matters.

By the way: If I remember correctly, either JK or KO said that morningstars work a bit different in Dom3. Instead of "piercing" shields, they substract 4 from shield defense, or something. But I was mainly offended by hammer infantry. Hammer infantry tires quickly, deals low damage, and costs a LOT.

[Endoperez]

B0rsuk said:
By the way: If I remember correctly, either JK or KO said that morningstars work a bit different in Dom3. Instead of "piercing" shields, they substract 4 from shield defense, or something. But I was mainly offended by hammer infantry. Hammer infantry tires quickly, deals low damage, and costs a LOT.

Morningstars and flails get +2 attack against shielded units.

Yeah, hammer/shield guys are definitely worst of the lot. They are just inferior compared to morningstar/shield troops, while maul and battleaxe don't really differ from each other.

[Tuidjy]

Borsuk, the progression makes perfect sense. Between EA and MA, Ulm was invaded
by The Stupid. They threw away their swords, locked their women home, and
decided that lifting dumbbells was substitute for martial training. Do not
believe the propaganda. They did not decide that magic was bad. They just
lost 30 points off their IQ, and it was all sour grapes from then on.

The smiths escaped the curse of the Stupid, because when the dumbbell worshiping
mob came to lynch them, they showed them a heavy hammer, and told them it was
a just a special kind of free weight. Of course, this backfired as the morons
who heard it became the hammer wielding infantry.

By the way, Ulm still has swords. Look at the arbalesters. Why do you think they
are decent infantry?

[Dedas]

Endoperez said:

Morningstars and flails get +2 attack against shielded units.

Yeah, hammer/shield guys are definitely worst of the lot. They are just inferior compared to morningstar/shield troops, while maul and battleaxe don't really differ from each other.

Mauls are less expensive in resources, making them the least expensive troop in the whole of Ulm's arsenal. The "drawback" is one less defense.
If you are fighting low attack high HP units like giants and Agarthans battle axes might be more preferable.

[Endoperez]

Tuidjy said:
The smiths escaped the curse of the Stupid, because when the dumbbell worshiping mob came to lynch them, they showed them a heavy hammer, and told them it was a just a special kind of free weight. Of course, this backfired as the morons who heard it became the hammer wielding infantry.

The Stupid in question happen to be Ermor. Dom:PPP Ulm broke away from Broken Empire with the help of steel, like Marignon did with priests and Pythium with magic.

[Edi]

Ah, a favorite subject of mine, progression from EA to MA to LA and how to tie it all together. Better brace yourselves, people.

It all begins (and ends) with Ermor, since that nation is most intimately tied with so many others (C'tis, Pythium, Ulm, Marverni, Marignon and perhaps even Arcoscephale). According to the original script, Ermor rose to become a mighty nation that conquered most of the world and then fell into darkness in a cataclysmic disaster that brought the Ashen Empire into being.

In Dominions 2 we got the Broken Empire as an alternate historical timeline. When Dominions 3 came around, Kristoffer put Broken Empire in MA and tried to make all the tangled history work together though it doesn't do it very well because they are parallel alternate timelines. That's why it gives us such schizophrenic side effects with some of the other nations and why the Ashen Empire descriptions clash with MA Ermor's.

In the case of Ulm, it was one of the conquered territories that was subjugated and so was Marverni. If we go by what I personally consider the official history (i.e. the original story), things make a lot more sense. The Augur Elders dabbled with stolen C'tissian secrets, screwed up and caused the cataclysm. Cue Ashen Empire (which really should be in MA by that account). For the barbarians of Ulm who have been Ermorian vassals for a few centuries, this would represent the ultimate corruption and taint their views on magic pretty damned severely. So they turn to steel and eschew magic. Marverni, which has been absorbing more influences from Ermor and is more influenced by their old Flamen and numina cults and which was always more devoutly religious turns even deeper into religion and brings the cleansing power of holy fire to bear on the nemesis. MA Ulm and MA Marignon, i.e. the original Ulm and Marignon, are born.

Later, when the Ashen Empire has finally been defeated (or is about to be or is not yet, depending on how you want the story to go), the Iron Cult emerges in Ulm and starts gaining influence. Eventually it causes unrest and schisms inside Ulm, possibly with the help of corrupted elements from elsewhere, Ermorian Death Cultists, what have you and all kinds of dark practices get introduced in secret cabals. Civil war between the Black Order, the Iron Cult (which may or may not have already absorbed the Black Knights) and the master smiths and their supporters gives the secret factions more leeway to work their dark designs that culminate in the Malediction. Basically, a usurper god kicks the old, feeble god of MA Ulm off the throne, curses the land and alters its characteristics and brings about the Ulm of the Black Forest.

Meanwhile in Marignon, heresy has been stamped out and the Chalice Knights grow complacent, unrest from neighboring Ulm spills over, there may or may not be other influences at work here too and these funny little devil cults start cropping up, some perhaps even inside the church, born out of the fear and desperation of prominent clergy who are willing to pay any price to avoid the kingdom being overrun by the Ashen Empire. An inquisitor looking the other way here, a few blood sacrifices there, some pious blather about the common good requiring hard choices and a few choice appeals to how sacrifices were okay in the old days (Marverni) and pretty soon we're talking about the Dom2 era Diabolic Faith Marignon, which is essentially what the LA Marignon in Dom3 is (only with the Conquerors of the Sea theme tacked on and it's a fairly poor fit in my opinion).

That's a nice little progression there that makes perfect sense and has deliciously many shades of gray and makes for grand drama. It all practically requires Ashen Empire to be MA and Ermor's fall to be cataclysmic.

*****

The other side of the coin, Broken Empire... Suddenly, MA Ulm is no longer a logical continuation of the events of EA and the Fall of Ermor. Marignon likewise. C'tis starts having thematical problems, but on a far, far lesser scale. This is all true only as long as Broken Empire Ermor stays in MA. But what if Broken Empire migrates to Late Era while Ashen Empire sneaks back into Middle Era?

Cue following alternate history, drawn from Edi's overactive imagination:

So, some smart cookies in the EA Ermor took a look at how the Empire was going, saw that it'd be a good idea for continued longevity to get out while the getting is good and set themselves up in a comfortable exile in Pythium. Ulm and Marignon and all the others keep on fighting Ashen Empire, with help from Pythium perhaps as well and this goes on through the Middle Era. C'tissian advisers on Death magic come to Pythium to give them aid and together with influences from Arcoscephale and points further give rise to the cultic system that comes into its own in Late Era.

We remember that in the Late Era, the Theurgs have become superfluous in face of the Serpent Cult and its allies the Cult of the Sacred River of Life and Death (another Cult if C'tissian origin). At the same time, Ermorian exiles who may have had more than a little support among the old Theurgic order amalgamate the teachings of the C'tissian River of Life and Death cult and the Theurgic order, giving rise to the Thaumaturgs.

Say they have a very strong presence somewhere in the provinces along the border with old Ermor proper and after the final defeat of the Ashen Empire are looking to get their heritage back. So they take two or three provinces lock, stock and barrel, strike out on their own and make a pact with some new god on the side, that they will serve him and keep Death at bay if this new god helps them make Old Ermor habitable again. So instead of being the one, final gasping speedbump in the way of an emerging Ashen Empire, they would in this history be cleaning up the wreck and trying to put the shards of the broken empire back together again. Wresting the land back from the Ash, as it were, and they'd need power over the dead to make it work.

So, this is not an official history of the Dominions world, but it's the one I prefer because it neatly solves a lot of otherwise complicated continuum problems that make my head explode if I try to work out a Broken Empire Ermor in MA.

Too bad that switching the Broken and Ashen Empire around right now would break a whole lot of crockery with the community and ongoing games. I might be tempted to actually make a modded BE Ermor switched to LA sometime. All it needs is descriptions redone...