Size 0 units

[Christocipher]

Hello I had a look at my giant spreadsheet again and found some more funny things, here they are

I looked at all the units that were size 0.

These are planes that are size 0 I think they might be bigger.
Hungary unit 286 WM-21 Solyom
Germany unit 408 He 46
Spain unit 467 He 46c Pava
Spain unit 309 He 46c Pava
Spain unit 418 He 46c Pava
Germany unit 407 He 46

Japanese unit 032 and 089 70mm Inf-Gun are size 1 but the other 12 70mm infantry guns that are the same gun are all size 0 and one of those is in the Japanese army. I can give a list of the other guns if you like. 70mm inf gun is way very small.

Italian unit 369 Para C/C 47L32para is size 1. but all the the other 47mm AT guns are size 0.

Germany unit 709 PzKw 740(r) is size 0 It might be bigger than that.

Pretty simple so far but then it got complicated again, with the forts. The shelter bunkers, caves, ammo bunkers are size 0. So I couldn't work out how some of the forts are size 0 but I thought about it a lot and is it because they are just very small targets like a slit that you have to hit otherwise it doesnt do anything.

But then I thought if thats it why aren't all the forts size 0 because they all have such thick walls if you dont hit them in the slit then nothing happens to them but of course they have to be bigger because the other ones are great big lumps of concrete which are as big as barns so they have to be big sizes so you can see them but hey ho not all of them. The Frenchy magino line forts are really turrets and they are really small but get really big size numbers when they are really just size 1 or 2, the Belgians have some as well. like unit numbers 059, 060, 061, 079, 085 for French and Belgians have 061.

I saw some countries dont have a 0 sized HMG they can be very good sometimes so it might be good if all the countries got one.

[Christocipher]

I saw somthing funny sizewise in the Norwegian OOB, the 20mm AA gun is size 3, the 37mm AA gun is size 4 and the 40mm AA gun is size 1. looking at the pictures I couldnt work out why. So I thought this is a job for my giant Excel spreadsheet and it really was. I saw that the same AA gun is different sizes depending on what country its in or bigger guns have smaller sizes, like in Norway. It turns out all I have to do is turn on the filter in the spreadsheet class column and just pick Flak class and that gives me all of them. Looking at the picture of the guns I worked out that the Norwgian 20mm AA gun isnt really that big to be size 3. I looked to see what size the 75 and 88 flak guns are and its size 2 so I thought all the AA guns smaller than 40mm should be size 1 which a lot of them already are and I listed the ones that aren't in case you want to change them. Even the big 20mm Quad Polstens are listed as size 1.

List goes country, unit number, unit name, size.

Chinese Communists 235 20mm AA Gun 2
Chinese Communists 53 25mm (2) AA-Gun 2
Chinese Communists 54 40mm AA-Gun 2
Finland 51 20 ItK/30 AA 2
France 202 20mm AA-Gun 2
France 29 25mm (2) AA-Gun 2
France 100 40mm AA-Gun 2
Germany 87 2cm FlaK 30 2
Germany 88 2cm Vierling 2
Germany 89 3.7cm FlaK 36 2
Germany 880 3.7cm FlaK 43 2
Great Britain 64 40mm Bofors 2
Greece 210 20mm AA-Gun 2
Greece 213 20mm AA-Gun 2
Greece 211 37mm AA-Gun 2
Greece 214 37mm AA-Gun 2
Greece 215 40mm Bofors AA 2
Hungary 32 20mm Legvedelmi 2
Hungary 33 40mm Legvedelmi 2
Hungary 243 40mm Legvedelmi 2
Italian Social Republic 17 Contraerea 20mm 2
Italy 297 Contraerea 25mm 2
Japan 87 20mm (2) Tp4 AA 2
Japan 167 25mm Triple AA 2
Japan 31 25mm Twin AA 2
Manchukuo 87 20mm (2) Tp4 AA 2
Manchukuo 167 25mm Triple AA 2
Manchukuo 31 25mm Twin AA 2
Nationalist China 235 20mm AA Gun 2
Nationalist China 53 25mm (2) AA-Gun 2
Nationalist China 54 40mm AA-Gun 2
Netherlands 260 20mm AA-Gun 2
Netherlands 261 40mm AA-Gun 2
Netherlands 19 40mm Bofors AA 2
Poland 417 25mm (2) AA-Gun 2
Poland 415 40mm Bofors 2
Romania 262 20mm AA-Gun 2
Romania 263 25mm AA-Gun 2
Romania 264 37mm AA-Gun 2
Soviet Union 347 25mm AA-Gun 2
Soviet Union 384 25mm AA-Gun 2
Soviet Union 54 37mm AA-Gun 2
Spain 460 CTV C/A 20mm 2
Sweden 40 40mm Akan m/36 2
Thailand 180 20mm OerlikonAA 2
Thailand 181 40mm Bofors AA 2
USA 68 37mm AA-Gun 2
USA 43 40mm AA-Gun 2
USMC 27 20mm AA Gun 2
USMC 119 37mm AA-Gun 2
USMC 79 40mm AA-Gun 2
Vichy France 202 20mm AA-Gun 2
Vichy France 29 25mm (2) AA-Gun 2
Yugoslavia 71 20mm AA Gun 2
Yugoslavia 336 25mm AA Gun 2
Yugoslavia 57 37mm AA-Gun 2
Belgium 24 40mm Bofors AA 3
Belgium 110 40mm Bofors AA 3
Norway 120 20mm AA-Gun 3
Norway 121 20mm AA-Gun 3
Norway 122 20mm AA-Gun 3
Australia/New Zealand 64 40mm Bofors AA 4
Canada 64 40mm Bofors AA 4
India 64 40mm Bofors AA 4
Italy 440 40mm Contraerea 4
Norway 123 37mm AA-Gun 4
Romania 265 40mm AA-Gun 4

[Christocipher]

Greece has 0 size unit 268 149mm How.
Greek unit 23 6 Pdr AT-Gun is size 1 these guns are normally size 0.
Yugoslavia has 2 size 1 65mm Mtn Guns, units 21 and 320. 65mm guns are always size 0.
Yugoslavia has 2 size 1 units 19 47mm AT-Gun and 142 57mm AT-Gun. These guns are normally size 0.
Frances unit 95 2 Pdr AT-Gun is size 1 these guns are normally size 0.
Norways unit 30 65mm Field Gun is size 1 these guns are normally size 0.
Spains units 171 and 603 and 602 Canon Inf 70mm are size 1 these guns are normally size 0.
Spains unit 421 and 420 CTV 65mm L17 is size 1 these guns are normally size 0.
Spains unit 602 and Spanish Republics unit 113 and 114, Canon Inf 70mm are size 1. These guns are normally size 0.
Chinese communists and Nationalist China's unit 136 70/37 Mortar/AT might be size 0 not quite sure what it is.

In the class Heavy AT gun most of the 75mm and 88mm pedastal type AA guns in the AT role get a size of 2. But there are 14 guns that get size 3 but are really size 2 like the other same size AT/AA guns. They are

Hungary 34 80mm Legvedelmi
Italian Social Republic 616 Ansaldo 75mm
Italian Social Republic 434 Ansaldo 90mm
Italian Social Republic 448 Ansaldo 90mm
Italy 425 Ansaldo 75mm
Italy 615 Ansaldo 75mm
Italy 616 Ansaldo 75mm
Italy 434 Ansldo 90mm M39
Italy 443 Ansldo 90mm M39
Italy 448 Ansldo 90mm M39
Spanish Republic 105 Canon 76.2mm AA
Sweden 41 75mm LvKan m/37
Thailand 182 75mm L60 Bofors
USA 42 90mm AT-Gun.

Also in this Heavy AT class is one gun that is not a pedastal type AA gun like the others its German unit 205 8.8cm PaK 43/41. At 1.9m high it could be size 1 insead of size 2. For comparison Russian size 2 85mm flak and German 88 flak are 2.25m and 2.1m high while size 1 25pdr and 17pdr and 3inch are 1.71m and 1.6m and 1.62m high.

In the AT Gun class all the guns are size 0 or 1 except 2 which are both 88s. One is Flak 88 so Ok but the other is German unit 86 8.8cm PaK 43. This gun is only 1.37m high and only 1.67 on its wheels so a definite size 1.

[Christocipher]

I picked class's AAtruck, SPFlak, lightSPAAVehicle. It is a bit confusing for me because most of the AATrucks are in SPFlak. I looked at the country where the SPAA guns are all the proper real size and then I showed which other SPFlak are too big compared to that country. The countries I used for real sizes are USofA and Great Britian.

Here it is

All the AA Trucks are size 3 except 2 size 4 French AA Trucks units 323 and 324 and 4 size 4 Soviet trucks, units 667 668 40 69 which are GAZ AA Trucks The French trucks are really smaller than most of the other size 3 AA Trucks. The French trucks do have 40mm guns, but there are lots of other size 3 AA Trucks with 37mm and 40mm that are all size 3. The French size 3 unit 86, M16 SPAA half track with a quad 50 cal is for sure bigger than the french size 4 AA Trucks. Soviet half track unit 90 ZSU-M15A1 is size 3 as well but with a big boxy 37mm AA mount and bigger than the 4 GAZ AA trucks.
Spanish unit 272 AA Truck is size 5 but looks to be the same truck as Spanish unit 78 AA Motoriz Azul which is size 3.

German units 869 and 61 Flakpanzer 1/A and Flakpanzer 38 are size 3 but are really size 2 using Great Britian as the benchmark. To save you time I put in the height width and length so you can see. UK unit 106 Mk VI AA is 4.0 2.08 2.35. German unit 869 Flakpanzer 1/A is 4.02 2.06 1.97. German unit 61 Flakpanzer 38 is 4.61 2.15 2.25.

Nearly all the AA vehicles are size 3. 16 are size 4, 12 without the GAZ AA trucks, Of those 12 left are all tanks, except for 4 German halftracks. But using US size 3 AA halftracks as the benchmark the 4 German halftracks are really size 3. USA unit 25 M16 MGMC is 6.5 2.16 2.62 and unit 64 M15 MGMC is 6 2.5 2.64. German halftracks are unit 62 SdKfz 7/1 FlaK 6.85 2.35 2.62. Unit 324 SdKfz 6/2 FlaK 6.33 2.26 2.50. Unit 482 SdKfz 7/1 FlaK 6.85 2.35 2.62. Unit 483 SdKfz 7/2 FlaK 6.85 2.35 2.62.

Same benchmark makes size 4 Cananda, UK and India, unit 105 and Polish unit 185 Crusader AA mkII at 5.97 2.77 2.38 also really a size 3.

There are 4 size 5 AA not counting the Spanish AA truck. Canadian Unit 18 Skink AA 5.82 2.62 3.0. German units 175 Moebelwagen 5.92 2.95 2.73. 63 Wirbelwind 5.89 2.88 2.76 and 64 Ostwind 5.92 2.95 2.9 (2.76 without the teeny weeney bit of gunshield that sticks up 40cm). So UK and Canada size 4 unit 80 Crusader AA Mk I at 5.97 2.77 2.9 is really a size 5 as well.

[DRG]

I know you are having "fun" with your "giant spreadsheet" project searching out various real or imagined minor variances in the 13,128 units that make up the OOB's in SPWW2 but it's time you looked closely at the postings under 2024 Game Updates---That is in the first item of the first page in the "sticky threads" section

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=53091

NOTE the wording of the fourth paragraph in regards to the V17 release we made on 9th May 2024

"the final release for winSPWW2"

That is "Final" as in the last one.

Each of those 13,128 units has 60 data points that might.... maybe, vary in some way from other similar units if for no other reason than multiple people have contributed over 2 decades and sometimes all it takes is one cut and paste error to generate multiple errors over a number of OOB's that use the same unit........ that is 787,680 data points total so if you are going to check them all you are going to be busy for a very long time but there is little point to the exercise.

There have always been minor variances in the OOB's and there always will be because V17 was the final release and even if we did take all the data you have generated and "corrected" every unit that might deviate I can assure you that when a scenario or campaign or game is played the ultimate outcome would not change in any way that would be significant and we have no doubt at all if this exercise was followed through to conclusion it is inevitable that somewhere down the road someone would find something else to question us about and it still wouldn't change a game battles outcome in any way that would change a win or a loss to a loss or a win so debates about a unit being size 2 or 3 are pointless even if they are there as the random number variations in to-hit/kill code smooth over little discrepancies like that.

Spend more time playing and stop "worrying" that a slight difference like size 2 vs size 3 really makes a difference to overall game outcomes

[Christocipher]

Oh WOW so sorry I didnt realize you arent making any more changes to the game. I have not been here long but congratulations. But I think that this post is more important, dont worry for me I do play plenty of games as well as look at my beloved giant spreadsheet. Because when I play I found that a size one MG is easy to get rid off because as soon as it fires you see it and destroy it but a size 0 MG can keep on shooting at you for many turns and you often cant kill it unless you get real close which can be very hard or take a long time to do like if its like behind mud. So I think having every country have a size 0 MG would make a difference to game outcomes especially because you can have lots of them. And maybe some of the other players would like to see my posts so they can MOBHACK the errors I have found in their OOBS like I do.

The pattern seems to be that if a unit has just one HMG or MMG and then rifles or some stuff that isnt a H or M MG and a crew of 3 or 4 then it is size 0 but there are some that are like this but are size 1. I guess they should be size 0 they are

Canadas unit 130 Vickers HMG
Italies unit 659 50 Cal MG
Yugoslavias unit 441 Schwarz HMG Sec

These next ones are a bit strange 1 MG units normally has 3 or 4 men and 2 MG units normally has 6 or 8 men but
Japans units 315 and 316 Type 3 MMG and Type 92 MMG
Manchukuos units 315 and 316 Type 3 MMG and Type 92 MMG
have 8 men but still only 1 MG and an extra rifle where the second MG would normally be.

These ones are funny to
Polands units 721 722 723 Partisan HMG
There are 12 men like with 3 MGs units but only 1 MG and 1 rifle in each unit.

Not sure about this one either because even though it is a class Machine Gun Team, weapons are .303 Bren AAMG and enfield rifle.
Great Britians unit 633 Home Guard MG.

Anyways the countries without a 0 sized HMG or MMG are
Slovack Republic Poland Manchukuo Japan Vichy France Polish LWP USA Chinese Communists India Yugoslavia Nationalist China Belgium Canada Finland Hungary Romania and Thailand.

I noticed something funny and its the name of Spanish Republics unit 142 which is Bat 76,2 1897. The comma needs to be replaced with a dot because when you export the OOb file into the excel spreadsheet the comma puts the rest of data into the wrong columns.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Christocipher

I noticed something funny and its the name of Spanish Republics unit 142 which is Bat 76,2 1897. The comma needs to be replaced with a dot because when you export the OOb file into the excel spreadsheet the comma puts the rest of data into the wrong columns.

Understand both Andy and I are tired of these posts and we don't give a rats A$$ if the comma..... which is the correct historical naming for that units weapon upsets your Giant Speadsheet and we have no intention of changing it because your Giant Speadsheet has NOTHING to do with the game.

TAKE THE HINT

[DRG]

I want to clear something up for anyone reading these posts thinking that just because every detail across similar units is not the same then there must be something wrong

We started with OOB GUIDELINES with some hard rules but there was a lot of flexibility in the guidelines

I will start and end this with two examples and then I am done. I have no time or inclination after telling everyone we are done with SPww2 to go back and endlessly explain why things might be the way they are .......they just are and in many cases have been that way for most of the game's QUARTER CENTURY existence.

1/An AAMG used by a Brit Home Guard unit is perfectly acceptable as the MG is usable on both ground and air targets when used by that unitclass and adding one that has AA capability means it's available for players to choose ( not that it really matters as few people would bother with a home guard unit anyway and I doubt even 1% of player knew it even existed)

2/ A two MG- 8 man size 1 unit IS a "standard" but it's not carved in stone a SINGLE MG 8 man size 1 unit MAY be an "error" and PERHAPS should have been made four men with size zero but it wasn't because it very well may have been a DELIBERATE DESIGN DECISION. It should be obvious that an 8 man unit has more resistance to damage than a 4 man unit and that could very well be why they are the way they are. IDK.... I cannot be expected to know why an OOB designer 20 years ago might have decided to build a unit that way

The game has lasted as long as it has because of the variables built in and the OOB's are part of that.

This discussion ends now