DDay

[Christocipher]

I was landing in Normandy and really liked how the Petards creamed the Germans. I did some looking up tfor the Petard Mortar which is weapon number 43 for Britian. I think its numbers might be a bit wrong because the dustbin it fires is 230mm not 290mm and carries 40 lbs of explosive. It gets HE penetration of 30, HE Kill of 53 and warhead 15. I looked for something to compare and found UK weapon 180 the 120 pound bomb with 32.5 lbs of TNT gets HE penetration of 2, HE Kill of 21 and warhead 15. Or the UK weapon 181 250 lb bomb with 68 lbs of tnt has HE penetration of 4, HE Kill of 34 and warhead 22

Im guessing the 30 penetration is because it is a HESH? But I think maybe the Petard HE Kill is maybe to high?

Petard details are here

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-g...oogle_vignette
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/ar...hurchill-tank/
https://cmea-agmc.ca/armoured-vehicl...engineers-avre

I looked in my giant spreadsheet and found that the Petard is in British units 41 556 756 757 Canada 37 347 Belgium 262 India 41 AustraliaNZ 41

[Mobhack]

Thread moved to the appropriate forum.

this is a post on equipment - please post such in the TO&E forum and not the main game forum

[Mobhack]

I cant say I have ever bothered with the AVRE (unless given to me in a scenario) as it has such limited range. A 75mm gun equippped crocodile has a flame thrower which deals with bunkers at similar short range, and a 75mm which can plink most of them further away and deal with tanks reasonably well.

Not all AVRE are engineer tanks either now - the only one I would bother with as the obstacle mine clearance is useful, not having to crawl up to 2 hexes to deal with any bunker. A 75mm gun tank has a few smoke shells and can smoke off a pesky bunker from miles away as it approaches.

It is a fringe thing amongst other fringe things, and the stats have remained the same for a decade or more without any player reaction, till this post?.

The HE pen value is because its a HESH round, obviously. Which MBT has, but not WW2 so has to use HE pen instead. Not a lot of use as an AT weapon, unless the enemy lets you trundle your very slow churchill up to 2 hexes.. its a drawback of bunkers that they do!.

Lets see if any others have an opinion on the thing.

[Christocipher]

Thanks a lot for all that lesson on how to play the game its a great help for me. Looks like no one else posted anything so I must be right and found a mistake. Either the petard has too small a HE Kill or the 250 lb bomb is not enough HE Kill. I know you are the expert and can work out which is wrong straight away, but I can look in my giant spreadsheet and work it out for you as well if you want someone to check for you or you are to busy.

[Christocipher]

Even better than the petard is the LCT(R) that really really smashes everything up, I looked them up and found some funny stuff. I was playing the British and I saw that my unit 101 LCT(R) could sail right up to the shore and paste the germans real good. But I looked them up on the net and found this at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrotated_Projectile they said

The Mattress for the Land rocket was limited in elevation from +23° to +45° which restricted the minimum range to 6,700 yd (6,100 m).
Three spoilers were made, which could shorten the range in stages to 3,900 yd (3,600 m).

Maybe then these craft should not be allowed to come up to the shore and fire straight at stuff because minimum range is about 3 miles. Maybe these should be off board units.

They are unit 101 in the British Canadian India AustraliaNZ OOBs. I looked a lot but could not find that the Canadians Indians or Australians or New Zealanders used any of them

Theres lots more about them at this place https://www.combinedops.com/US%20LAN...T%20ROCKET.htm

[DRG]

The OOB's evolved over many years. Many units were added to nations that may not have had them directly as they could have been used as support from other nations........ for DD for example a Canadian unit could have requested them as support...... whether they did or not is irrelevant.

As the game evolved the ability to "borrow" units from other nations as allied or captured which negated that need to add them to nations that may not have had direct access to them but by then the OOB's were well established and we were not going to remove units like that as doing so makes unnecessary work and introduces more chance that someones favourite saved game uses them so that is why they are still there and will remain so.

If you think you should not use them then don't use them and if you think you should not run them up to the shoreline then don't. "Free will" means it's your choice

Our enthusiasm for making major alterations to the OOB's at this stage is ZERO ESPECIALLY for a unit that has been used for decades in the form it is now........ WYSIWYG

ALSO..... " minimum range" is set for weapons like that in the "Sabot" slot of the weapon NOT the unit so if other units use them that may not have a range restriction then we would have to build a separate weapon just for those and we could have and even might have done that (maybe.....) had this conversation been started 2 decades ago.......so again----- WYSIWYG

Feel free to create your own OOBs. We include all the tools to do that with the game

[Christocipher]

I know you are very busy so I have done as much research with all the numbers in and checked double checked everything so its right and put in references so anyone can check real quick.

Thats tricky about the ranges Ill try to learn it. When I looked in mobhack about it like you said I found some mysteries which I solved for you. Here they are. I got to say that looking up all this was like kicking the hornets nest, every time I thought I had nearly worked it out it just got more tricky.

British weapon 109 4.6in rocket isnt real, how tricky is that. I was looking for a red herring. So I looked for what rocket the units that fired that rocket really had.

British Units are.
101 LCT(R).
176 Assault Pioneer.
567 Land Mattress.
654 Assault Pioneer.

I looked and the internet says LCT(R)s always fired the naval 5in shell on a RP3 rocket. Same as the land mattress fired. The 5in naval shell, British weapon 188 gets HE Kill of 15, but the 5in naval shell on a Rocket gets a HE kill of 17. They both have 7 lb of explosive.

The Assault Pioneers really fired RP3 rocket with either a 21 lb warhead, 4 lb of tnt or a 60 lb warhead, 16.75 lb tnt. But with the fins cut down so they fire them very inaccurate and the useful range was really really short.

The Indian, Canadian and Australain/NZ LC/T(R), unit 101 are also firing the 4.6in Rocket really they fired the 5in rocket.

And just when I thought I was finished. Yes you are right the US and maybe the USMC used LCT(R). Your US LCT(R)s fire the US 4.5in rocket, but really the US LCT(R)s still fired the British 5in rocket. US LCI and LSM are the ones that fired the us 4.5in. And then it gets worse, The US 109 4.5in rocket is 3 different rockets Its the M8 4.5in, M16 4.5in, but mostly its meant to be the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket. Which means US Weapon 109 has some wrong numbers.

109 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket. range is now 5200m really was 1100 yards.
109 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket. HE Kill of 17 is to high with only 4.3 lb of explosive.
109 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket. warhead size is 5, USMC 109 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket warhead size is 4.
173 M8 4.5in Rocket. HE Kill of 19 is to high with only 4.3 lb of explosive.
M16 rocket. range is .
M16 rocket. has 4.3 lb explosive warhead.
M16 rocket. range is 4800m for USA 143 honeycombe and USMC 143 T66 RL.
M16 rocket. is more accurate with spin stabilisation.

I looked at who in USA fired the 109 rocket and here the ones that dont fire the beach barrage rocket.

023 T34 Calliope RL. fires the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket (109) really fires 173 M8 4.5in Rocket.
061 Assault Eng. fires the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket (109) really fires 173 M8 4.5in Rocket.
083 LCT(R). fires the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket (109) really fires British 5in in rocket.
143 Honeycomb RL. fires the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket (109) really fires the M16 rocket.
143 Honeycomb RL. available from is 11of44 really was 4of45.

and then in USMC these dont fire the beach barrage rocket.

013 RL T34 Calliope. fires the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket (109) really fires 173 M8 4.5in Rocket.
048 Assault Eng. fires the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket (109) really fires 173 M8 4.5in Rocket.
076 LCT(R). fires the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket (109) really fires British 5 in rocket.
143 T66 RL. fires the 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket (109) really fires the M16 rocket.
143 T66 RL. available from is 11of44 really was 4of45.

Im hurting that was some effort.

Im still working on the mystery of the RP3 British weapon 174 I cant match it to any rockets on the internet anyone know about what it is meant to be?
How about all that for some hot detective work.

Here is references I checked if you like I can give all the exact relevant bits out of each one as well.
for 5in rocket warhead
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landin...t_Tank_(Rocket)
for 5in rocket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP-3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattress_(rocket)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrotated_Projectile
for looking at US using British LCT(R)
https://www.combinedops.com/US%20LAN...T%20ROCKET.htm
for looking up 4.5in Beach Barrage Rocket and who fired them
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/4.5-Inch...Barrage_Rocket
https://laststandonzombieisland.com/tag/barrage-rocket/
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval...e/rocket-ships
and you can look up, double triple check everything, but ive already done it, here
https://www.bulletpicker.com/index.html

[DRG]

That's nice...... now go back and actually read Post#6 however many times you need to understand it and next time you see what you think is a weapon that should be used read what it's weapon class is as that affects how it is used. HINT WC11 are aircraft weapons only. READ MOBHack Help for the restrictions to WC11 weapons( it has the most of any other Weapon class)

Class 11 - this is used for off map aircraft weapons. (Not helicopter MG or so on). These can be cannon or rockets, or if range is 1 hex, bombs.
Class 11 Aircraft weapons must only be allocated to strike, bomber or wild weasel planes, not to on map units.

Class 11 air weapons if auto cannon or MG will use the HE ammo number for number of engagement opportunities, and the AP byte is then used to represent the number of cannons/MGs for this type of class 11 weapon. Helicopters use normal on-map MG or cannon classes, not class 11. You may therefore need a copy of say a 12.7 gatling - one off map for fixed wing planes and one on map, with normal AP ammo and possibly sabot for your helicopters to use.

Class 11 air cannon can only use HE ammo as the AP round number is used as the number of cannon, so if they have an armour piercing capability then this is reflected in an HE AP rating, not an AP round rating. Class 11 air cannon are fired at 2 standard ranges - about 8-10 and 2 or 3 hexes, so max range is not very relevant - leave at about 20 hexes should do. (As they use HE AP values there is no pull down for range between firer and target in any case).

Other class 11 weapons - bombs, missiles etc - use the HE rounds as number of bombs. Do not allocate them an AP rounds number as they are not air cannon, so not multiplied by the AP 'number of cannon' multiplier.

Spotter, glider and transport planes do not use weapons.

Bombers can only drop bombs - weapons with range of 1 hex, therefore cannot use cannon, stand off weapons or guns/cannons.

Aircraft passes are determined by remaining 20mm plus cannon ammo if no other weapons are left - size 2 and above. Therefore - for WW2 in the main - where strafing planes with 0.50 or rifle calibre mg were needed - these are controlled by the strafe number - this is entered in the HEAT Top Armour byte, for fighter bomber or SEAD planes only. If entered an S:NN is displayed beside the plane's name on the buy screen. It can be used on planes with a 20mm plus cannon to reduce passes, but in this case - better to reduce the number of actual shots, if you do not want the plane to linger for strafing runs after offloading its heavier ordnance.

173 M8 4.5in Rocket is WC11........ The code for WC11 weapons is significantly different than other weapons BECAUSE they are meant to be used by aircraft that enter from off map then fire weapons

You did get one thing right. The US 109 4.5in rocket is 3 different rockets and was intended to be a general amalgamation of 4.5 rockets used by any ground unit using a 4.5 rocket and has been without question for over 2 decades and changing it to specific rockets would make ZERO change to overall game outcomes


I suspect you are spending too much time staring at a spreadsheet of numbers looking for "errors" instead of with MOBHack or MOBHack HELP which provides more info.

Finally ( and I mean finally) if you cannot find info on the RP-3 Rocket you need to work harder at that " hot detective work" thing you think you have.

[Christocipher]

Aw sheesh and I thought I was doing good.
Well 3 rockets combined into one is OK but that means units 80 DUKW (T44 RL), 82 LVT 2 (T45 RL), 83 LSM(R), 85 DUKW (RL), 117 LVT 2 (T45 RL) that really only fire the beach barrage rocket should only have a range of 1100yds but in the game get 5200m I thought thats a pretty big advantage for those units that they should not have.

I looked a bit more into the explosive filling and the US weapon 179 30lb Bomb has 4.6lb of HE filling and gets a HE kill of 14. So beach barrage rocket with 6.5lb of filling is about right at HE Kill 17 but with only 4.3lb of filling weapon 173 M8 4.5in Rocket HE Kill of 19 is way much to high. Not sure what you mean about the planes but Ill check out in Mobhack like you said, but the units 013 RL T34 Calliope, 048 Assault Eng, 213 Xylophone MRL all fire the M8 same as the planes do, so not the game combined rockets weapon 109 rocket like now. Maximum range for the M8 rocket is 4600 yds.

When I said 143 T66 RL. available from is 11of44 really was 4of45 I meant that the Honeycomb is starting in the game to early by about 5 months.

Just so I dont make mistakes later on is there any other combined weapons I should avoid? I looked myself and didnt see any but hey there is a hell of a lot of them.