Just Curious

[Dion]

I never thought of it like that. Good to know the truth of the situation! Thanks.

[Mobhack]

Just some stuff I picked up on reading the occasional "what if Spain threw in thier lot with the nazis" sort of threads that appear from time to time on the alternative history forum.

Basically the consensus is that spain is toast if they join hitler's crusade. Big importer, from allied countries or via shiping that crossed Allied controlled oceans from the neutrals. Still devastated and recovering from the civil war. poor infrastructure, damaged by same. still a lot of unhappy campers in the general population who would kick off in revolts if Spain started sending big armies out of country to help germany (which germany would have to fully equip and supply as spain could not do so, even if the the allies let the supplies continue. Which they would not!).

If Germany decided to "do a Napoleon" and unilaterally go through Spain to deal with Gibraltar in a "special military operation to help our fascist brothers" then they would have the same situation as the little Corsican did in the Napoleonic wars. Or Poutine has in the Ukraine today.. After all "guerilla warfare" as a military/political term originated there and then!. Everyone and thier dog in Spain would be popping off at isolated Axis invaders. Both the Francoists and the remaining left sympathisers. Poor infrastructure, basically a nightmare scenario for a Germany who is knees deep in Russia and cannot divert many front line divisions - so would have to probably use garrisons from France and maybe Norway or italy, leaving the atlantic wall and Italy less guarded... And the Allies would land expeditions and act like the British did in the Napoleonics, with help from the regular Spanish army. Except this time add in the USA, the Commonwealth and all that lot as part of the expeditionary forces. An "open" Spain would remove the need for Operation Overlord in all likelihood?.

So Franco sitting on his hands and professing his friendship to his "pal" Adolf while only allowing a token support (Azul div) while keeping friendly with his food suppliers was exactly the right thing to do for Spain at the time. And Hitrler doing a "Yugoslavia" on the Spanish is right out - unless he was off his meds perhaps?

[Christocipher]

I will play them when I finish dday

[zovs66]

I created half a dozen or so SCW scenarios and they can be found in the system. They were fun to do at the time and some were/are interesting battles.

[Mobhack]

Oh, silly me!. I forgot to mention the back door to Spain. It's called "Portugal"...

Portugal was one of the earliest allies of England from the 1600s or earlier, then the United Kingdom. And helped out with the corsican gent in the 1800s most notably. In WW2 a bit frosty relations as the Salazar(?) regieme was a dictatorship, but still, despite being kinda-sorta pally with Franco, they could flip over to the Allied side.

So Spain would have at a minimum to divert a lot of divisions to "observe" the Portugese border, which Portugal just might object to. Divisions that wont be of any use to Adolf and his team. Even if they stay sorta neutral, these would be required "just in case" they actually did flip to the Allied cause.

Should Portugal actuallly "flip" Allied then that opens up uncontested ports and land area unopposed for the Allies to deploy into and backstab the Spanish from. And air bases already set up for use etc. No need of an OVERLORD over the beach type assault landing in Spain proper in that case!.

And the Allies could provide all sorts of enticements (loadsamoney being a big part of those!)to encourage the flip to overtly on side with them methinks. They managed to get leases on the air bases in the Azores in our tmeline already.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portug..._War_II#Azores.

I had a unit of Portugese cacadores in my 25mm Napoleonic British army back when I was 16 and interested in Horse and Musket wargaming. Almost as good as the UK rifle regiments, just in brown coats and a bit cheaper in points, as "B" class rather than "A", IIRC.

[Dion]

This topic reminded me of an interesting article I read a few years ago regarding this very same subject in Strategy & Tactics magazine. The article was about the fact that Spain was pro-Axis but remained neutral throughout WWII. Anyway there was a map of the world concerning food imports. The map showed food imports of all counties in the world just before WWII started. Most all the countries were importing food at a 60% - 90% range, Germany was importing about 86% of their food, Spain wasn't much better, there was a few countries that had plenty of food, I think Canada was one of them, importing only about 6% of their food, but the good old USA stood alone, all by itself, as it imported a whopping 0% of its food! It looked like most countries were reliant on other countries to just feed its people. No wonder why there was a world war. It must have been a very desperate time for everyone in those days.

[lansoar]

i love playing early and pre WWII scenerios if tanks are involved. the 'laboratory' effect leads to some interesting situations, especially if in small numbers.

[troopie]

Originally Posted by Dion

This topic reminded me of an interesting article I read a few years ago regarding this very same subject in Strategy & Tactics magazine. The article was about the fact that Spain was pro-Axis but remained neutral throughout WWII. Anyway there was a map of the world concerning food imports. The map showed food imports of all counties in the world just before WWII started. Most all the countries were importing food at a 60% - 90% range, Germany was importing about 86% of their food, Spain wasn't much better, there was a few countries that had plenty of food, I think Canada was one of them, importing only about 6% of their food, but the good old USA stood alone, all by itself, as it imported a whopping 0% of its food! It looked like most countries were reliant on other countries to just feed its people. No wonder why there was a world war. It must have been a very desperate time for everyone in those days.

Something I heard that Francisco Franco said. Spain was pro-Axis in Eastern Europe, Neutral in Western Europe and Pro Allied in North Africa.

troopie