Multi OoB Mortar Discrepancies

[scorpio_rocks]

Whilst tinkering with a fantasy OoB I started to notice some quite large discrepancies between the stats for the French (originally) 120mm Rifled mortar - French 120mm MO-120 RT-61. This is used by about 15 real life militaries (including Belgium, Brazil, Djibouti, Colombia, Cyprus, France, India, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Netherlands, Tunisia, Turkey and the USMC) and appears in around 10 of our OOBs.

5.Japan #42 Type 93 Acc: 5 HE P: 2 HEK: 15 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 12 Max: 203

6.France #43 MO-120 RT F1 Acc: 5 HE P: 2 HEK: 15 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 12 Max: 164

13.USMC #42 M327 Acc: 6 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 10 APK: 21 Min: 3 Max: 164

16.Gulf #240 120mm RT Acc: 3 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 12 Max: 203

27.Belgium #44 MO-120-RT Acc: 3 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 4 Max: 144

28.Dutch #42 Brandt 120mm Acc: 3 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 9 Max: 123

32.Turkey #47 Tosam HY12 D1 Acc: 3 HE P: 1 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 12 Max: 203

34.Italy #129 MO120 RT F1 Acc: 3 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 10 Max: 205

47.Cyprus #42 120mm RT Acc: 3 HE P: 2 HEK: 15 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 12 Max: 203

64.Saudi #240 120mm RT Acc: 3 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 12 Max: 203

and possibly:
54.Thailand #52 Brandt 120mm Acc: 3 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 9 Max: 123

As I understand it these are all the same weapon (or licensed copies), using standard NATO ammunition. It has a published max range of 8140m (163 hexes) or 12850m (O/M 203 Hexes) [17km some sources (O/M 207 Hexes)] with HE-RA rounds. The only figure I could find for min range quoted 1100m (22 hexes)!!! This seems long... The accuracy of a muzzle loading mortar is standardised (ish) at 3 in the game, perhaps this should get a 5 due to the rifling?

Might I suggest Acc: 5 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 12 Max: 163 - for standard HE,
and Acc: 5 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 0 APK: 0 Min: 12 Max: 203 - for the RA round?

Whilst it wouldn't surprise me that the USMC has created it's own Cluster rounds, I couldn't find any details of them (perhaps Suhiir can illuminate us?)

The USMC are developing the PERM (Precision Extended Range Munition), based on the Israeli Dagger mortar round. The stat line for that, however, again seems out of kilter:

13.USMC #48 M327 PERM Acc: 25 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 10 APK: 21 Min: 10 Max: 207
Compared to similar Israeli Dagger and Finish STRIX systems:
IMI Smart #74 Acc: 6 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 7 APK: 21 Min: 0 Range: 164
IMI Smart RA #76 Acc: 6 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 7 APK: 21 Min: 0 Range: 210
STRIX Fin #31 Acc: 10 HE P: 2 HEK: 19 AP P: 7 APK: 21 Min: 20 Range: 200

Is it really THAT much better? - or is the dagger not depicted in the israel OoB?
(ps Israel IMI 120mm mortars still need a min range!)

Hope this helps!

Thoughts?

[DRG]

on the list....................

[Suhiir]

This is the sort of thing Don loves to hate.

The 1,798 pound RT 120 is a French-designed 120 mm mortar that can fire smoothbore or rifled ammunition. It has a range of 8.2 km/ 5 miles, or 17 km/ 10 miles with rocket assisted projectiles currently under development. The MO 120 RT is currently in service with the French Army and other 23 armies worldwide, including 3 NATO countries.

Standard electronically-fused U.S. artillery fuses are fitted to the projectiles for point detonation or airburst capabilities.

Raytheon Test-Fires New GPS-Guided Mortar for Marines (December 18, 2014)
The Marine Corps program, called Precision Extended Range Mortar, or PERM, is aimed at developing and fielding precision-guided mortar rounds able to better pinpoint targets compared to existing mortar rounds. A typical mortar round travels about seven to eight kilometers. the PERM rounds can reach distances up to 16 kilometers.
In a recent test-firing, three rounds landed within 10 meters or less of the desired target.
The rounds were fired from a Marine Corps M327 120mm Rifled Towed Mortar. Raytheon and Israeli Military Industries are jointly developing PERM.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/small...allarms_id=910

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The PERM in initial test firings was accurate to within 10 meters. It is a GPS guided in flight correctable round with the use of onboard canards to correct for wind deflection etc. etc. It is however, important to note the above accuracy was tested at the rounds maximum range at the time of 17km, it will be fielded with a 20km range. There is some data to support CEP to target within 5m at closer ranges. Also as important to this discussion is the fact that the USMC has not fielded this round and it won't be until mid to late 2018 vice later this year. The first ref. is from 6 June 2015 and the second ref. is a test firing conducted in mid Dec. 2014.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/stor...rtar/28311079/
http://defensetech.org/2014/12/18/vi...r-for-marines/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-system-06756/

The next part of this concerns the STRIX as the comparison (To PERM.) was made to it concerning the accuracy within the game. We did some work on this about 3-4 years ago I believe some of that to be in the SP/SPAA Thread and a dedicated thread on the topic within this forum. STRIX is also a very accurate 120mm mortar round primarily developed to take out light to heavy armor, that's designed by nature to be a top attack weapon. Further it is considered to be the first accurate smart munition. It uses an IR and navigation system which would infer early GPS to detect the target and it is very effective against moving targets. Some sites indicate it also carried a small "millimeter" radar as well. Effective range is to 7km. Also it can effectively defeat ERA and still penetrate the steel armor, penetration rates vary from 700 to 800mm + (I've seen upwards to a 1000mm but , I don't buy it. If averaged out I'd say ~825mm.). For ref 1 "click" on Sweden on the next page "click" on item 3/STRIX. The last video shows its versatility across weapons systems and the need to add the boat to the Swedish OOB as well. I recommend watching the videos in full screen to better see the STRIX making those in flight corrections using the rocket motors.

http://cnqzu.com/library/Anarchy%20F...20Handbook.pdf
http://memim.com/strix-mortar-round.html
http://defense-update.com/features/d...-munitions.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhd1d2sW_3I
http://www.vysales.com/videos/alvis-...4e335f6y4.html

The data for both is pretty convincing, however watching the videos for both carefully the argument can easily be made that the STRIX is more accurate or at a minimum a wash. And again the distinction has to be made concerning what targets these rounds were primarily designed for.

Yep, pretty non-committal-not really as I noted above, target types. Based on that, STRIX gets the edge in accuracy in my mind, since it'll correct for moving targets, while, PERM will correct for only getting close to the targets coordinates.

Also as a side note, Sweden's testing of the STRIX lead directly to the reason why they had KMW of Germany so heavily modify their factory ordered LEOPARDS (STRV-121/122) to make them even now one of the most protected tanks against top attack weapons. More on that from the last formal PATCH I submitted 2 years ago in the MBT Thread/or Patch Thread.

That my opinion, and like opinions, we got one!?!

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

So for WinSPMBT purposes the PERM is an HE munition whereas the STRIX is an AP.
However since neither is a cluster munition I'm not entirely sure how to model the AP capability of the STRIX unless it was made a cluster munition with a very poor HE rating.

[scorpio_rocks]

Whilst in all probability unnecessary...

A reminder bump

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

So for WinSPMBT purposes the PERM is an HE munition whereas the STRIX is an AP.
However since neither is a cluster munition I'm not entirely sure how to model the AP capability of the STRIX unless it was made a cluster munition with a very poor HE rating.

The short answer is you can't. It's not cluster but that's the way you get AP effects in the game with something that is a semi smart munition

BUT............for those of you who like to experiment try setting up a Test STRIK weapon and unit but set weapon AP pen to 222 and HEAT pen to 8 then fire both it and the regular version at tank concentrations as cluster and let me know what your tests show.......it *might* be too effective but it might be just right for "smart" munitions

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well it's posted above a couple of numbers up, but, this video has been always been helpful when STRIX seems to come up every couple of years or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhd1d2sW_3I

I see an M-60A2/or A3 and what looks like a very late model CENTURION MBT a couple of times in the video though the M-60 appears to be the same from a different angle. Also remember they blew up many of there own T-72 tanks both in stationary and remote operated modes in various terrain environments. The Swedes where also looking to the development and possible fielding of the Russian T-95 BLACK EAGLE in the further development of the STRIX 120mm mortar round.

Again as a further reminder, this weapon drove the need of the Swedes to have the Germans heavily modify their LEOPARD/STRV tanks as they did. The STRV is still one of the best, if not still the best, top armored tanks in the world. Simply put if they can develop a weapon system like STRIX, then in time why couldn't someone else do it and possibly use it on them? STRIX and the STRV tanks just about "go hand in hand" to each other.

Every experiment needs a "control point/or data point" maybe this will be that, and again maybe not.

There are about five videos out there that I'm aware of/or was. One of them I'm did show the T-72 testing I'm pretty sure which was about 5 minutes long.

And I'm sorry I can't remember which T-72 variant/or upgraded variant the Swedes operated with though this would have some bearing on the test results, as I believe theirs had ERA added before the end of their operational career as I remember.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

I've seen the videos, I know it's an effective system. I'm experimenting with tweaking the modeling to match the reality........as it was, was a more of an annoyance than a tank killer but I think I have the solution that brings the game modeling closer to reality

[scorpio_rocks]

I'm guessing you have also given the IMI 120 mortar a min range and standardised the stats for the 120mm RT?