US OOB 12 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Pibwl]

That's what I spotted, while working on pictures (and later):

01 Combat Car M1 - could be also armed with .30 AAMG (seen on most photos)

02 Light Tank M2A4 - production began in May 1940 (by Wikipedia) (now 1/35!). It has icon 114 of M5A1 - better would be 98 of M3.

03 Light Tank M3 - has a picture 380 of M3A3. Correct is eg. 27704, 27706, 27008, 27709, 27705 or 27707 (last two are probably M3A1)

08 M4A3 (75) - has a picture 384 of M4A1, with cast hull. This is late version with 47° welded hull - correct is 27726. Same for unit 206 M4A3 (75)(Late)

09 M4A3 (76) - has a picture of M4A1(76), with cast hull. Correct is 27727 or 27733 or 27737
Same for units 135, 189 M4A3 (76)

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SP-Flak:

24 M15-A1 MGMC - has picture of M16. M15 were produced from "early 1943" (Halftrack In Action book) (now: 1/42), M15A1 were yet later.
Would need a change in formation 368 - maybe the earliest would be one of units below:

There could be added T28E1 - the same, but with unarmoured turret. First vehicles were completed around 11/42 to take part in invasion on Africa.

25 M16 MGMC - produced from 5/43, available probably from a bit later - maybe Sicily invasion (now 1/44)

212 M13 MGMC - has a picture of M16. Accepted in July 1942 according to a Polish book (In Action says mid-42 - now 1/42). (However, the mentioned book suggests, that a production started in 1/43 - it could be verified)

Would need changes in formations 371, 372 - but is there any reason to keep it a separate class (light SPAAV), other, than SP-flak? (It was a direct predecessor of M16 SP-flak). It could be earliest vehicle in SP-Flak class, at 7/42.

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29 LVT(A)4 - should be named LVT-4 (A4 was turreted variant)

30 M29 Weasel - a detail, but a photo shows non-swimming variant (common mistake dating from original SP as well). Swimming variant was named M29C.

33 M3-MG Halftrack - icon 164 of M3A1 halftrack should have a gun ring on a right side.

(34 Scout Jeep - Jeeps with AAMG could be given a separate photo...)

35 Jeep - there was no A/T utility vehicle before Bantam BRC and Willys MA built around 1/41 (now: 1/30)

44 75mm Howitzer - picture 411 is a generic gun, reminding Soviet 76mm, while it should be, I think, M1 howitzer (on old M1 or new M3A3 carriage - I'll attach a proposal drawing basing upon a manual, not very good though)

63 Sniper - it has a picture 32089 (used also for Swedish sniper), showing some SMG with a magazine on the right - same for several other units.

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M3, M6 GMC

78 M3 75mm GMC (class Assault Gun) - photo is T19 105mm halftrack - correct is 27738.

100 M3 75mm GMC (class TD) - photo is T19 105mm halftrack (as above).
They were produced from 9/41 only, and used on Philippines from 12/41 (now: 1/41) (precisely, these early ones were T12 pilot vehicles, M3 were produced from early 1942). Would need changes in some formations, as the earliest unit (M6 should be much later).

Also unit 78 (class Assault Gun) could be made available from 12/41, since they were mostly used in direct support role on Philippines (now: 3/43). It would need changes in some formations, becoming the earliest unit.

211 M6 Fargo - production started only in 4/42 (now 3/41) - it would need change in formations, earliest TD should be 100 M3 GMC.

114 M3 75mm GMC (class Assault Gun) - photo is T19 105mm halftrack - correct is 27738, as above.

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88 P-39 Airacobra - photo 261 is P-63 Kingcobra (used in Soviet OOB primarily). Better one is 14075 (US markings), though it might be P-63 as well.

90 B-25a Mitchell - better photo for level-bomber variant is 30107 (with a glazed nose)

116, 423 75mm M1916 Bty, FG - photo 23015 is Russian M1902 gun (photo is available eg. here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:75...SModel1916.jpg )

122 WACO - officially Waco CG-4A

130 Boeing P-26 - better photo is 30262

134 Dodge T214 WC53 - it should rather be named WC51 (on a picture) - WC53 was carryall with closed body, built in a small number.

153, 214 75mm Pack How - it had a single-tail bed (unit 145 has 2111)

188 M4A3 (105) - picture is late variant with HVSS suspension. Better seems 27725 (I think it's 105)

207 M40 155mm GMC - has a picture of M12 GMC. Correct old one is 12037.

(208, 209 4.2in Mort Sect - did there exist M5 and M6 4.2in mortars? I could only find M2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_4.2_inch_mortar

213 Xylophone MRL - photo is some Soviet Katyusha - Xylophone had side-firing racks (however I know, that photos might be scarce). I'll attach a proposal (a model)

240 Light Tank M3A1 - has a picture 380 of M3A3 - correct M3A1 is 27705 (probably) or 27707.
Used definitely longer, than 9/42, though I have no data now.

241 Light Tank M3A3 - according to "Stuart In Action", M3A3 was used by the US forces for training only (most went abroad). Besides, production started in 1/43 (now 10/42), and a better icon is 114 (of M5A1 - it had sloped front)

243 LT M3A3 Recon - should be just M3 - M3A3 was used only for training by US forces, and picture is M3. I don't know however, if M3 were used this way.

[DRG]

....... on the list for investigation later this year .......and while I do understand the temptation to use wiki as a source of information it's just not reliable enough to use for anything other than a starting point for further investigation so PLEASE do not use wiki as a source when suggesting something might be wrong

Thanks



Don

[Mobhack]

(208, 209 4.2in Mort Sect - did there exist M5 and M6 4.2in mortars? I could only find M2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_4.2_inch_mortar

A quick search on Google on the 4.2 inch mortar served up this page: http://www.4point2.org/mortar42.htm

As you can see, the range increased several times over WW2 from the section "Increasing the Range in World War II"

So most likely the HE ammo was M1, M2 and so on and the OOB designer has designated the weapons with the ammo's M numbers and not the ordnance's M number in order to differentiate these, rather than using (MR), (LR) or such a scheme - is my guess.

("Mortar, 4.2in M2 with Shell, 4.2 inch HE M2" would not fit the game's name length limits !)

cheers
Andy

[DRG]

I think that is what has happened but I have noted this down for special attention.

Don

[Pibwl]

Part 2

As for 02 Light Tank M2A4 - I had no source by hand, so I used Wikipedia article (which refers to Hunnicut in general). Anyway, "Stuart In Action" also says May 1940.

As for 240 Light Tank M3A1 - still in use at Kasserine Pass (2/43), I guess until the end of Tunesian campaign at least (now ends at 9/42). I don't know, if US Army M3 Stuarts were used in Pacific theatre after this date (Marines' M3 were).

As for 243 LT M3A3 Recon - I've never seen a photo of turretless M3/M3A1 used as a recce vehicle. M3A3 were quite common in this role - but in other allied armies, while US Army never deployed M3A3 to combat units (according to "In Action").

300, 301 M4A3 (Early) - picture is M4A1. More correct are 385, 16506 (Chinese?), 27717 (although this is probably pure M4), 27720, 27721 (both French markings?)

302, 303 M4 (Early) - picture is M4A1. More correct are 385, 16506 (Chinese?), 27717.
I would suggest to call it just "M4", as it was basic model, same for "M4A3" without "early.

304, 305 M4 (Late) - picture is M4A1. I guess it should be M4 with composite hull, but it should have the same cast front armour, as M4A1(76), while it has one more (10).

308 M4A3 (76) - same notes as 09 M4A3 (76)

310 M4A2 (Early) - AFAIK US Army never used M4A2. Anyway, picture is M4A1, and more correct are 385, 16506 (Chinese?), 27720, 27721 (both French markings?)

344, 199, 201 T30 75mm HMC - picture is 105mm T19.

350 P-39 Airacobra - picture is P-63 (same problem, as unit 88)

(368 Bantam - precisely, Bantam BRC)

412 4.5 In Gun Bty - picture is British 4.5in (different gun)

415 8 Inch How Bty - M1 howitzer was standardised only in 1940 (now 1/30). Earlier there was used old British 8in howitzer, with much shorter range.

424 75mm M1917 FG - according to Hogg's Fact Files, used until Philippine campaign (now 12/38) (picture is some M1897-looking gun, while M1917 had small pneumatic tyres in last variants) Same for 409 unit.

That's probably all.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Few suggestions of additions:

- M5 High Speed Tractor (from 5/43) - existing M4 HST (#381) was a tractor for heavy artillery, while M5 was most common.

There were also used by the Army:
- Amphibs:
- LVT 1 (combat debute in 11/42),
- LVT 2 (unarmoured, produced from early 1943)
- LVT(A)2 (armoured, produced from unspecified time in 1943, rather later that year)
- LVT(A)2 modified in 1944 with 37 mm automatic aircraft gun on a pintle
- Amtanks:
- LVT(A)1
- LVT(A)4

More comments on LVTs will be in USMC OOB notes.

I'm attaching mentioned pictures of 75mm M1 howitzer on M3 carriage

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

310 M4A2 (Early) - AFAIK US Army never used M4A2. Anyway, picture is M4A1, and more correct are 385, 16506 (Chinese?), 27720, 27721 (both French markings?)

IIRC the US tank formations in Tunesia were temporarily issued vehicles from Lend-Lease stocks in North Africa after the Sidi-bou-Zid/Kasserine debacle in February 1943. If memory serves me right, they were M4A2s destined for the French forces undergoing re-armament. Can't find a source right now, but might be worth checking up on before deleting the vehicle. Even though it wouldn't matter much in game terms

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Few suggestions of additions:

- M5 High Speed Tractor (from 5/43) - existing M4 HST (#381) was a tractor for heavy artillery, while M5 was most common.

There were also used by the Army:
- Amphibs:
- LVT 1 (combat debute in 11/42),
- LVT 2 (unarmoured, produced from early 1943)
- LVT(A)2 (armoured, produced from unspecified time in 1943, rather later that year)
- LVT(A)2 modified in 1944 with 37 mm automatic aircraft gun on a pintle
- Amtanks:
- LVT(A)1
- LVT(A)4

More comments on LVTs will be in USMC OOB notes.

I'm attaching mentioned pictures of 75mm M1 howitzer on M3 carriage

From memory the LVT series will be hard to model, esp the A versions if I remember.
Bristling with MGs but most need passengers on board to fire & or do not cover the front arc. You could perhaps include them with a short range as additional close defence.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Imp

From memory the LVT series will be hard to model, esp the A versions if I remember.
Bristling with MGs but most need passengers on board to fire & or do not cover the front arc. You could perhaps include them with a short range as additional close defence.

They are already in USMC OOB, so it's nothing new.
By the way, a visual difference was, that Army LVT had large stars, while the Marines usually have none (by "Amtracs in action" or similar Concord book).

[Pibwl]

There could be also added late-war M4A3(75) and M4A3(76) with sandbags on hull's front and sides, which were quite common sight (from around August 1944?). There is already a drawing pm27729.lbm of such M4A3E8.

Michal