Hungarian OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

303 Scouts - better pic of non-Mosin rifle is 23509 (used by unit #300 for a rifle 43/M)

310, 311, 316, 317, 359 Rifle Section, 312 Scouts - proper pic of Mosin-family rifle is 11098

357 Maxim HMG [2] - better picture is 29409 or 29178

373 SPG-82 RCL - picture should be changed to correct one (I've proposed new picture in other post). (I have no idea, if they used this unpopular weapon).

376 B10 Recoilless - as #68 - realistic date is 1/55 (now 1/50)

388 Yak-9B (spotter) - maybe Yak-9M or P (Yak-9B was sparse Soviet fighter-bomber variant). Hungarian spelling is Jak.

398 GAZ-46 MAV - it should be small 5-seater amphibious jeep, equivalent of Ford GPA, not MG-armed 3+6 crew vehicle - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ_46 . Picture shows probably some prototype of some other, bigger vehicle (also used in Polish OOB as MAV).
Available in OOB in 69-120 - but it's somewhat doubtful, if the Hungarians started to use it 11 years after production's end (1958 according to the Russian Wikipedia), and it's unbelievable to use it until now. 1/58-12/79, max. 89 would be more probable estimation. Speed was 90 km/h.

403, 404 BRM-1 - seems, that this is in fact ordinary BMP-1 lacking Malutka, not BRM-1K (special scout vehicle from the 80s, which, according to nTW-1/01, was delivered only to Poland, CS and NVA). Therefore, it should have picture 11064 of BMP-1 and be named so (assigning BMP-1 to recce tasks doesn't make it BRM). Basic BMP has carry=109, these: 112.

408 BTR-60PB - carry capacity was in fact only 8 (+commander) (now 112).

411 BRDM-1 - DShK was rather not used, typical was one 7.62mm MG.

414 IS-IIm1944 - better name is just IS-2 (especially, that no other models of IS-2 are used). Ammo was distributed more evenly (if not more HE, than AP).

421 Luchs A3 - it isn't known to be used (now: from 1/110)

422 Mercedes Atlas - an existence of such vehicle, armed with Mistral and DShK in addition, should be verified. There are known Mistral launcher carriers on Unimog trucks in the Hun. Army.

424 Mistral Team - according to an article in nTW 6/2011, only twin Atlas Mistral launchers are used, and after withdrawal of Igla in 2011, Hunagry remained without MANPADS at all.

425 VBL Igla - existence of such vehicle should be verified. There are known only GAZ-66 Lama vehicles - simple twin Igla-1E launchers on GAZ-66 truck (unarmoured), with no MG (I have no info on number of reloads, which should be 2-4). Possible icon 76. It doesn't seem to have TI, nor any special night vision devices. Some photos of a model and a real one: http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...opic_id=155046
Unfortunately, I have no sure starting date - may be assumed some 1990 (Igla missiles were bought in 1986), withdrawn in 4/2011. In an article on Hungarian Iglas [source nTW 6/2011] there's no mention on VBL launcher.

426 Strela-3 Team - in fact, should be changed to Igla-1E - used in Hungary from 1986, last ones fired in 4/2011 [source: article in nTW-6/2011, by Hungarian author]. Despite some Western sources mention Strela-3 in Hungary instead of Igla, but there is no mention on Strela-3 in a quoted article, devoted to last firings of Igla. After 2011, Hungary remained without MANPADS.

433 UAZ-469 Shmel - starting date at 1/60 is rather impossible, since only in 8/60 it was commissioned in the USSR, and then its production started. Realistic date is 63, as of unit #434. Besides, it should be GAZ-69, not UAZ-469.

436, 437 Reserve Section - proper pic of Mosin-family rifle is 11098

480 Malutka ATGM - there shouldn't be RPG-7

494 Malutka 2 - as #98

503 152mm Battery - correct pic of D-1 howitzer is 36139

542 Komsolets - should be replaced with Ja-12 tractor.

The Hungarians also used during the war 37M Hansa-Loyd - a copy of SdKfz-11 (I don't know if it was used post-war, but it could be)

590 43/M Turan 75h - as far as it is known, Turan 75h (Turan III) with long gun remained a single prototype from 1943. The sources usually focus on Hungarian tank production before 1945, but it is doubtful, if their production lasted after the war...

613 BTR-80A - 25 vehicles were present already in early 1999 - I don't known when delivered (now 1/100) [source nTW 4/99]

903 Su-22 - precisely, Su-22M3. It could carry only 6 S-24 rockets, one under each main pod (now: 9)

905 MiG-29A - even 80 rockets S-8 can be carried in 4 launchers (now: 40)

920 Mi-24 Hind - should be Mi-24D - but 80mm rockets were introduced only in early 80s, especially to client states.

924 Mi-24 Hind - existence of alleged 57mm guided rockets should be verified, especially concerning their low calibre and lousy efficiency.

To be added:
MaxxPro from 12/10 (Polish article http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5735)

Mi-24P (with 30mm gun) - several used from around 1996 (German gift)

That's all, unless I find some new info.

Michal

[Pibwl]

After a long time... excuse me digging out things and countries of minor importance (especially needing formation changes), but I've found an article on a modernization of Hungarian army in Polish magazine from 2020. You can ignore it as well, since Hungary wasn't involved in any conflict (although Orban would gladly take a part of Ukraine, if his Russia wins...)

39 2S1 Gvozdika - it shows, that they were withdrawn in 2004, and Hungary remained without SP artillery at all, until an advent of PzH-2000!

Moreover, WWII-era 122 mm howitzers M38 (175 122mm Section) were also gone by that date (no strange), leaving Hungary without units class 155 O/M medium artillery - only 152 mm howitzers D-20 remained (unit 177)

Edit:
Obviously, same for 091 122mm Field Gun (M38 howitzer) and 174 122mm Section (2S1)

64 BMP-1 - this unit is available in 1969-73, but they were delivered from 1973 only (next unit is 032 from 1/74).
Needs no change in formation, since there is BTR-50.

65 BMP-1 - withdrawn in 2007 (stored for some time afterwards), leaving Hungary without tracked APC/IFV, only BTR-80/A, until an advent of Lynx!

403,404 BMP-1 (scout vehicle) - the same - used in 1973-2007 (there is still left UAZ-469 until 125 in this class).
Units 403, 404 as scout vehicles were in fact BRM-1K, bought by Hungary according to the newer article. BRM-1K should have radar (TI/GSR 40), laser RF, photo 11488 and carry capacity 105 at best, like Soviet BRM-1K (in fact it had places for only 2 scouts, but carries unit 303 Scouts in Hungarian OOB, so...)

(BTW: speaking of scout variants of BMP-1, Polish OOB 403 BWR-1S Svatava and Czech OOB 404 BPzV Svatava should also have laser RF)

55 OT-64A - I have no firm info, when (and if) Hungary used OT-64 SKOT. Hungarian Wikipedia doesn't help. Anyway, surely there weren't any in 2007 (now 125).

(BTW: it is strange to me, why 408 BTR-60PB is available until 12/073 only, but I have no info)

Edit: more info as for OT-64 and BTR-60 below

66 PSzH-IV (light APC) - gone by 2020 or before (now 125). Needs change in form. 78, 90, as the only unit of that class

238 PSzH-IV (light support APC) - the same. No formation change needed (remains BTR-80).
(My guess is, that it could have been used also as a scout vehicle).

Edit:
According to Hungarian Internet, especially https://web.archive.org/web/20130609...ncelosok/pszh/, the name was just PSzH (even written as PSZH, despite "Sz" was a short of one word "szállító"), and PSzH-IV was just an export designation. According to the quoted page (of 2006), they were withdrawn "towards the end of the 90s".

By 11/23 Hungary acquired first two NASAMS SAM (from Norwegian OOB) (1/24 as a starting date?)

[DRG]

I will look into this soon

[Pibwl]

I dug a little deeper regarding mysterious BTR-60. Unfortunately, Hungarian Wikipedia is next to useless. In BTR-60 article it only mentions Hungary among users, without any details. However, a page on Hungarian army equipment https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Magy...9g_fegyverzete doesn't mention BTR-60 at all. I've finally found a Hungarian forum https://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb...D=596946&hash=, where the people evidently ask the same question about BTR-60 service, and ask why there are no photos, and one user says, that "Although there were 1-2 PB in Bolyain (in the military park), they were not in service, but remained", the other: "BTR-60PB (turreted) version was the first, but there were only a few of them, because we had standardized the Hungarian PSZHs, so there was no need for it", and the other: "We have never bought a single BTR-60 vehicle with a turret or weapon!". Seems, that there were only command radio versions.

We have 409 BTR-60P (which was the earliest very rare open top version, and I doubt if any were exported) and 408 BTR-60PB, of which there is no trace. I assume, that if they were bought in 1967, there was no reason why they didn't survive until 1989 - so probably they were not, if nobody has seen them...

Similarly with 055 OT-64A - with this difference, that I can't even find a Hungarian reference of its service. It isn't on the quoted Wikipedia page with Hungarian equipment. Czech book generally mentions "Hungary" among export customers, without any details or a number. Jane's Armour And Artillery 2004/2005 doesn't list OT-64 under Hungary that year. This Hungarian page doesn't mention Hungarian service, nor among export users: https://elfnet.hu/haditechnika/pancelautok/ot64.php.

[DRG]

Did you happen to notice that these BTR-60 units are only active in the OOB for 6 and 8 years and while there is a good chance anyone commenting on the question either really knows what they are talking about or only thinks that they do

AND I could also point out they have been in the OOB for over TWO DECADES without comment

For all anyone knows there could have been a handful of them in the country that the original OOB designer found info in a book that they were there but a quarter century later that minor info on a minor unit that will not make or break the rare game played by someone using Hungary between the years 1963 and 1973

I will look at this... I may just remove them or renationalze them or make them a new Unitclass or just make them a 3 radio code so the AI does not use them

[DRG]

https://wargame.fandom.com/wiki/OT-64A

I would never add OR remove based on info from only one source but we have had it in our games OOB I think a quarter century and lo and behold this source says 055 OT-64A

he OT-64 is currently operated by Algeria, Angola, Czechia, Egypt, Hungary, India, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, Poland, Serbia, Slovakia, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Uganda and Uruguay.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Similarly with 055 OT-64A - with this difference, that I can't even find a Hungarian reference of its service. It isn't on the quoted Wikipedia page with Hungarian equipment. Czech book generally mentions "Hungary" among export customers, without any details or a number. Jane's Armour And Artillery 2004/2005 doesn't list OT-64 under Hungary that year. This Hungarian page doesn't mention Hungarian service, nor among export users: https://elfnet.hu/haditechnika/pancelautok/ot64.php.

https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Poland/OT-64-Skot.php

Hungary: Perhaps 100 in service, dating back from the Warsaw pact.

[DRG]

I am done with this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTR-60

BTR-60 APCs were employed widely both by the Soviet Army and by more than 30 export customers.[15] Operators of the BTR-60 have included Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Bhutan, Botswana, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Congo, Cuba, Djibouti, East Germany, Ethiopia, Finland, Grenada, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Hungary, India, Iran, Iraq, Laos, Libya, Mali, Mongolia, Mexico, Morocco, Mozambique, Nicaragua, North Korea, Romania, Soviet Union, Syria, Uganda, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Yemen, and Zambia, as well as many of the successor states of the Soviet Union.[27] The most widely spread model is the BTR-60PB.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

BTR-60 APCs were employed widely both by the Soviet Army and by more than 30 export customers.[15] Operators of the BTR-60 have included Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Bhutan, Botswana, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Congo, Cuba, Djibouti, East Germany, Ethiopia, Finland, Grenada, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Hungary, India....

They're right. I already said, that Hungarian Wikipedia on BTR-60 lists Hungary among users, without any details.
However, it evidently concerns command and radio versions, as users of the quoted Hungarian modelling forum came to a conclusion.
However, with its limited timespan, it could be left, just in case. I only wondered, why they didn't used them until 1989...

As for OT-64 - anyway, there were none by 2004 anymore according to Jane's.

[Pibwl]

SP artillery

39 2S1 Gvozdika - according to https://web.archive.org/web/20070222...giment_070219/, adopted in late 1970s, first shown in public in 1980 (now 1/81). Needs change in formations: 281, 282. The page confirmed withdrawal in 2004 (BTW, in Hungarian language it was apparently known as 2Sz1 Gvozgyika, or 2SZ1)

Hungary also used 2S3 Akatsia (known as 2Sz3M Akacia) from early 1980s (first shown in 1985) until 1993.

43 ZSU-23-4 Szylka - Hungarian Wikipedia on army equipment https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Magy...9g_fegyverzete already in 2011 revision listed it as out of service, leaving Hungary without SPAA gun, until an arrival of Skyranger in an unpredicted future.

The same with 165, 169 BM-21 Grad Pl - marked as out of service in 2016 revision, leaving Hungary without rocket artillery.

I think that's all. Thank you for your time.

Edit:
One more thing about APCs occured to me. It seems, that PSzH with its 7-men carry capacity, was the most typical (and possibly only) Hungarian APC in 1970s and 1980s, made in 2600 units of all variants, not a scout vehicle... Páncélozott szállító harcjármű even translates as "armoured personnel carrier". I have no idea, how many men were in infantry squads - but I'm afraid, that PSzH should be an ordinary APC (wheeled), and the squad should be 7

"2,600 of the vehicle were produced between 1970 and 1979. The first mechanized rifle brigades were equipped with this vehicle, which was only withdrawn from service towards the end of the 1990s" https://web.archive.org/web/20130609...ncelosok/pszh/