a new direction to guides

[13lackGu4rd]

it seems like there are quite a few newbies(including myself) who have recently joined the Dominions community. all the guides available on these boards as well as on the wiki are very helpful, however they cover specific nation strategies and assume that you already know all the basic things. for example, in most of these guides the end game says "all the usual things", "easy access to tarts", etc. however there is nowhere(at least not that I found) that explains in detail what to do with tarts(and other SCs, Thugs, etc for that matter) once you summon them, how to best utilize them, how to equip them, etc. when guides refer to blood they usually say it's the most powerful magic path for those nations with good access to it, however, to the newbie, on first site the blood summons don't seem all that extraordinary and game breaking.

basically what I'm trying to say that what the more experienced players consider as "basics" are exactly what us newbies are missing. the guides available, which obviously are more useful to newbies than experienced players(though these can still learn things from them), just don't seem cover the very basics of dominions as a whole. perhaps a guide to Thugging(with more in depth basic details than Baalz's current Zen of Thugging guide), SCs, Blood(again aiming more towards the basics than Baalz's current blood hunting guide), Late game strategies in general(just Tarts or other useful things that can apply to all nations), basic strengths and weaknesses of each element, and why some like Fire are considered weak while others like Astral are considered very strong, etc.

yes, experience will eventually teach all these things, but than again, if you wish to pull the experience card than why make guides at all? and no, this is not a criticism post on the current guide makers, quite the contrary, those are a blessing! it's just that from my own newbie's perspective it seems that the first few steps in the staircase are missing...

[aaminoff]

Excellent idea. When I was first starting I wondered exactly about all these things. Eventually I figured them out by bits and pieces picked up here and there in other guides, as well as experience.

One way to go might be a "late game guide". By the late game many nations start playing much the same: most of the guide will say "do X Y and Z to make sure you have magic diversity for the endgame", most have Tarts or other similar SCs, most have researched up all the important research paths, if the game includes gemgens most will be cranking those out, etc. So a late game guide covering typical strategies from a nation-independent point of view would be great.

But there are gaps that are not just late-game. Every once in a while someone posts a thread entitled "noob questions", I wonder if one could get higher information density by distilling a bunch of such information into a guide rather than a FAQ format.

[Krec]

yes, i will figure the stuff out the hardway because i have a hard head, but i must say i love the guides and any extra stuff that can help i would really like. ps: when you launch an attack and its repelled by a hardheaded bastard on the other side ............its me.

[cleveland]

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

there is nowhere that explains in detail what to do with tarts(and other SCs, Thugs, etc for that matter) once you summon them, how to best utilize them, how to equip them, etc...

That's because there's no detailed formula for using beasties - or any other lategame bells/whistles - to obtain victory.

The late game is very complex, as literally every option is now available. The trick is to figure out how to use your particular angle (be it SCs, uber-communions, swarms, artifacts, globals, whatever) to exploit some weakness in your enemy's defenses without exposing yourself.

So for example, why are Tartarians so powerful? First, they're cheap; 10D is almost as expensive as a Revanent, so you can summon them en masse with late-game gem incomes. Second, they have huge magic diversity; remember that part about every option being available? Well, if you summon enough Tarts, eventually you'll be able to cast/forge them all. Third, they have 0encumbrance; they'll be able to chop through waves of enemies without exposing themselves to critical hits. Fourth, they have innate poison and cold resistance; high damage spells generally can be negated with resistances, and Tarts have 2 of 4 covered naturally.

Where are they vulnerable? First, they're undead, so low level stuff like Maggots and Dust to Dust can kill them when spammed. Second, most come as feebleminded non-commanders, so to make them useful you'll need some way to heal them and to cast Gift of Reason on them. This means you'll need powerful nature mages, making those summons inherently more valuable to you, in your own personal formula. Third, many are missing valuable slots. Fourth, they've got Shattered Soul. Etc, etc, etc.

A cleaver opponent will try to exploit these weaknesses, like by spamming D1 casters rigged for Dust-to-Dust, or by trying to remote-assassinated your Nature mages, or by bringing heavy lightning to big fights, etc. So you've got to counter those counters by protecting your tarts with undead decoys, or by keeping your Tart factories stocked with scouts, or by making sure everybody wears Copper Plates, etc. It's frankly a huge game of cat-and-mouse, where everyone is trying to use what they have available to exploit their enemy's weaknesses while covering up their own. The beauty of the game is that it's simply impossible to protect against everything.

So back to the OP, the answer is as always, "It depends." Hopefully the above illustrates that the question is flawed, much like asking, "How do I win at Chess?" Well, you take all his pieces without loosing your own. Keep your queen around, she's the most versatile piece on the board. Don't let your king be check-mated. It's impossible to say "keep a rook on space C4" because that's crap advice unless there's a reason for him to be there.

[13lackGu4rd]

Cleveland, I think you misunderstood my intention. I'm not simply asking for a step by step guide to late game, as that would be silly as you started saying, way too situational and nation dependent... all I said was that the late game for all nations seem similar, so some sort of guide on late game possibilities(tarts, blood summons, globals, etc) could be helpful to a lot of newbie players who are starting games and will eventually get into the late game(assuming they survive until than) and than will be pretty lost. again, not a step by step guide but more on line with the current guides available to the different nations, a few available options, why are they good, what are their key weaknesses, etc, so us newbies will know what to look for and what to expect. as an example, right now when you look at tarts you see undead(so you automatically run through all the good undead counters) than you see the need for nature mages for GoR and either GoH or the Chalice, and of course you see all the advantages you've mentioned here. a newbie on the other hand will not see all these things because he lacks the knowledge and experience that you and the other vets have accumulated... another example, a lot of people are talking about the all powerful blood summons(be it uniques or devils, vamps, etc), why are they so impressive? what makes these options so much better than the other standard options(say tarts) which makes these blood nations so much more powerful in the late game, what are some standard ways to counter these blood nations, etc.

basically the way the current guides, and other information, are presented here on these forums, they are meant mostly(but not only) for newbies yet they assume you(not you personally, more like most guide writers) already know the basics you're referring to in the guide. however the newbies reading those guides are missing these basics you're assuming they have. again, this is not a criticism on the current guide writers, far from it. this is just raising into awareness the fact that the first few steps are still missing from the staircase, and it would be very helpful, and a lot of newbies will greatly appreciate it, if there would be some more guides that cover those first few steps along with those aiming for the higher steps.

[Maerlande]

Blackguard,

I think you have a good point. I actually spent 2 years playing SP and reading all the guides in the strategy index before I stopped lurking and joined MP. And it's not very conveniently organized although I don't mean to imply that it's not a superb effort.

I strongly suggest you join the wiki project and we can work on that stuff there. For example, there are some pages for each magic path with specific and viable strategies suggesting cost effective uses of the gems and the viable summons. I wrote the water page. Some are not complete but if you join the wiki as an editor and post questions in the appropriate sections you'll probably get some response from the other editors.

I for one will add to my work to answer any noob questions there.

Here's the wiki link and the link to the water page as an example:
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Main_Page

http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Water

Here is Raiel's excellent guide to battlefield placement and scripting:
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Placement

So have a look at those. There are other sections such as the key spells that are specifically written for new players. Volunteers are badly needed to take the stuff from the strategy guide and move it to the wiki. And you can be a noob to do that.

Right now, the wiki seems to be more up to date and maintained than the strategy guide. And it's frankly a more robust format for this type of work.

PS: We can always review this stuff on IRC too.

Cheers,
Maer

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by cleveland

A cleaver opponent will try to exploit these weaknesses

I never want to run into a cleaver opponent :O

[Illuminated One]

Well, some ideas hope they help.


Thugs and SCs

Well, I think Ballz guides covered that quite nicely. To recap, what you want ideally is to take no damage at all. A human swordsman deals between 10 and 22 damage so anything with 25 prot should be save (not against giant nations or other thugs, though). That is if he doesn't get fatigue. Same goes for other things like defense, awe or somesuch, but that's more complicated.
And you want to deal enough damage to kill everyone, so brands are often taken (area damage).


Tarts

Some can Cloud Trapeze + Rain of Stones (death to all communion nations)
Some can Master Enslave iirc
Some can cast Acid Storm
Well, normal mages can do that too, but they usually kick the bucket after (insert applicable battlefield spell here).
Those that have all slots usually make good SCs (Fire Brand, Charcoal Shield, Elemental Armor, some helmet, antimagic amulet, ring of regen as some idea what you can give them).

Globals

Well, most notable are the gem generating ones, like well of misery. Everyone likes extra gems.

The other ones (like the admirals army) are hardly worth it imo unless if you have some funny strategy with them, they can be quite good. For example Enchanted Forest is extremely cheap in CBM, and will result in a neverending stream of vinemen. These are not very good in combat and will die in droves but since they are practically for free who cares?
The things is as with everything else you'd have to look for synergies.
Marverni has very good but frail long range mages (able to cast army of gold and battle fortune at the start of the battle, if applicable also elemental resistance, regen, etc) and ok troops that have a morale problem. You just use them as a meatshield that takes a while to hack through while your mages decimate your opponent from the back.
Every 40 vineman are another druid (since you just bought 30 warriors less) and they don't run from the field leaving your exhausted mages to die.
Another example - haunted forest. Every unit that is killed is instantly reanimated as a sleep vine beasty. Sleep vines cause fatigue damage which can be the death of any elite that doesn't pass the mr check on a regular basis. Now who'd like that? Niefel with their 1 man armies? Or Machaka who can get 100 militia out of the next best fort any instant and they still all die?
I don't know if they work against undead, there are so many caveats (for example, vine men can't be reanimated as undead or vine beasts... d'oh) in the game that you can't know them before you actually have used them. If you don't want to be surprised in a MP game you have to run tests yourself.

Otoh there is a reason why the common late game strategies (blood and tartarians) are common. Thinking your new strategy is so powerful that you can live without them is most likely a mistake.

There are also the extremely powerful globals:
Arcane Nexus ... what a Seraph costs only 100 pearls? (well, you don't actually use the pearls you wish for gems and make tartarians...)
The Forge ... forging for cheap. 50 item lab limit sucks
Utterdark ... everyone is broke and everyone is blind but you (well, if you are you did something wrong ... demons and undead ignore darkness or even grow stronger)
Astral Corruption - never seen it but it sounds fun
These either kill you (through gangrape) or win the game.

Blood

Well, firstly it's massable and reliable. The only limit to your income is the number of provinces you can hunt without killing population.
Another thing is you don't get blood in exchange for gems but in addition to them.
Resummoning an air queen is a lot more painful than loosing a demon lord, since your air gems are in demand for items, too, and your income is hardly as high as her cost. A late game blood nation can summon a unique every turn. And there are also a lot of unlimited summons besides the uniques, with only tartarians to keep the balance.
And then you have some extremely powerful spells to dispose of enemy SCs.

[BigDaddy]

I think there is a misconception here that fire magic is 'weak.' Well, that isn't the case, fire magic is the easiest way to fry enemy armies. Ya, mages can sometimes avoid the effect, and certain enemies are immune... but really, have you ever palyed Abysia? The 3F 3H priest rocks the battlefield, essentially the whole game agasint Abysia, you have a slot locked down for fire resistance... Even in SP. Of course Abysia is an extreme example of a nation that can cast fire spells the whole time next to its own troops without worry of killing itself... And those mages are probably the nicest for just leaving unscripted gems on.

BUT, it isn't hard to get too many fire gems, which makes them less valuable. You could just sell them.

[thejeff]

You don't have too many fire gems until research is done. Until then they go into Lanterns.

The problem with Fire is that it has little other than fire damage, so it's almost completely useless against Fire resistant things. And all thugs, SCs and mages coming against you are likely to be fire resistant.
It's powerful, but it's a one-trick pony. The AI doesn't know to go for fire resistance, so it's great in SP.

Other paths have useful buffs or other spells that work even if the opposition is immune to the path's main damage. Even against shock resistant enemies, Air thugs can use mistform & Mirror Image, armies can use Fog Warriors & Mass Flight. Thugs/SCs can Cloud Trapeze.
What do you do with your fire magic against 100% FR?