MP: Setsumi - Come for the game, stay for the drama!

[SciencePro]

Kuritza: if you want to work together with someone diplomatically you would probably have a lot more success making constructive suggestions on PM instead of just whining and criticizing people on the forum thread.

Llama: Ermor may be overpowered but as long as people realize it is overpowered and adjust their plans accordingly the game won't be unbalanced. In fact, I suspect that the perception of ermor's overpoweredness is greater than their actual power which is a net liability.

Zeldor's sucess in this game so far has everything to do with his diplomatic/social game and very little to do with any inherent power of ermor.

[Zeldor]

Is someone trying to blame me that I am trying to win?

I personally think that I should not be so big and strong. But many people let me grow and didn't try to stop me. I think that some underplayed [thx for suiciding that 2 air queens, Kuritza, I had no idea how to get rid of them]. I won't tell what some people did wrong as I don't want to have suddenly my enemies start using good strats.

Kuritza surely did a great job at making Man really strong [but maybe he was just lucky and got weak neighbours that let him? we can say that every time against every major power]. But I don't understand the disappointment that other players don't want to help you win. I am fighting Marignon, you and Abysia [+ some minor nations]. No one is helping me. You are all bigger than me, have much bigger income and gem income, not even mentioning my pathetic research. Why would anyone want to help nation with great research, tartarians, hordes of lamia queens [you got discount site or what? :P], globals, etc. If R'lyeh can defeat someone later it's hordes of undead, not tartarians.

Anyway, I'm going to do my best and keep on fighting. Man has nice armies to annihilate [Abysia too :P].

[Ossa]

"The situation hasn't changed that much now, except that Marignon decided to go AI, for losing SC's/mages, and not sticking around with this royal piece of steaming... excrement. Which a good player should've done."


I fear I simply dont understand this sentence entirely, Quitti. You suggest I should stick with the game and go down with my flags raised high, correct?


About the hidden secret weapons of Marignon I still have up my sleve, there are... none. I cant get enough gems to empower one single mage to cast a seraph. I cannot counter Ermors Golems running amok, as a) I have fewer than him b) I cannot waste my few astral boosters on mages to teleport in and mind war him - I have neither the cash nor the gem income. Mind hunt is also out of the question. The only mages capable of casting astral bolt are cap only, and if I loose all my province I cant afford them anyway.

I could stop Ermor's horde of undead with my priests, but now I cannot stop his SCs. Thanks to that metagame incident with Ryleth he openened two new fronts that put my capital directly into his line of fire. So, military wise, I'm done. I'm gonna ask Ermor for a NAP and some remaining provinces though (so I'm not going ai) so I can see the end of the game.


I'm just so frustrated because this was also my favorite game of the year until that thing with Ryleth happened - I just felt cheated. I've come over it though, but while we all saw Ermor growing stronger and stronger (and we all know who is going to win this game by now), noone took up the opportunity while he was low in research and engaged against my H3 priests to weaken him. Everyone (arco ?) just turtlered and waged their own petty wars.

Ermor even offered me a NAP (twice!), but I turned it down - just for the sake of the game, as I thought I would be the most potent player to stop him in the beginning. As there's hardly anything to gain from conquering Ermors provinces, I truly didnt do that to get the lead above the other players.

I just feel frustrated and let down, and now my armies are routed, my castles under siege and I cannot even slow his advance.



I dont blame Zeldor for anything - actually, he played a difficult (well, should be with sensible players) nation extremly well and his diplomatic skills at keeping everyone appeased won him this game.

[Quitti]

I fear I simply dont understand this sentence entirely, Quitti. You suggest I should stick with the game and go down with my flags raised high, correct?

Yes. Exactly what I meant. I don't mind if a player loses, but if he's about to lose and goes AI, it'll usually affect the game balance greatly compared to if he'd stay. I attempt to stay as long as I can make a difference compared to going AI nowadays.

[Kuritza]

Quitty, you just perfectly described the very behaviour that turns a 'very unbalanced' LA Ermor into a 'absulutely unbalanced' LA Ermor. You just cant 'mind your business' when there is LA Ermor in the game. If you do, you lose. But you dont care; too bad, because this ruined this game.
I didnt want you to fight Ermor to give ME an edge. I wanted you to join EVERYONES war against Ermor to try and stop him, and then see what you can do next. I already clashed with Ermor, so did Abyssia. Bite him from behind, do SOMETHING. Gosh, unite against me with other survivors when Ermor is down; do some thinking! If you dont want to win, if you dont want to even TRY, why do you even join games?!

... I wont join any more games with LA Ermor from now on. This nation is special, its mere presense requires people to react. They dont.

Science - you think I should PM and come up with constructive suggestions? THATS WHAT I WAS DOING SINCE THE START. Nobody gives a damn. Everyone is affraid of fighting Ermor, watching him grow. You even thwarted Marignon when he tried to stand against him. Then you said 'ok, lets fight Ermor now' and... did nothing. Thats why I dont try to rally anyone anymore and just directly blame clueless players for ruining this game.

Ossa - you did great. Respect. Just dont send unequipped sea troll Kings as mages anymore. It is a very good thug/SC chassis with proper items. One of my favourites mid-game SCs, actually.

Zeldor - you dont have a 'pathetic' research anymore. We have open graphs; your research is growing very rapidly. And no, no discount site. My discount site is called CBM 1.5; QM made Lamia Queens cheaper compared to vanilla game.

And yet, I am against finishing this game. I still have some aces in my sleeve. They are quite feeble against sheer imbalancedness of overfed LA Ermor, yet I'd like Zeldor to earn this victory, not just claim it by starting next to weak players.
Heck, there is a very slim chance my 'aces' will be enough.

And again, a side note to myself - never, ever join a game with LA Ermor and lots of new players anymore.

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Quitty, you just perfectly described the very behaviour that turns a 'very unbalanced' LA Ermor into a 'absulutely unbalanced' LA Ermor. You just cant 'mind your business' when there is LA Ermor in the game. If you do, you lose. But you dont care; too bad, because this ruined this game.
I didnt want you to fight Ermor to give ME an edge. I wanted you to join EVERYONES war against Ermor to try and stop him, and then see what you can do next. I already clashed with Ermor, so did Abyssia. Bite him from behind, do SOMETHING. Gosh, unite against me with other survivors when Ermor is down; do some thinking! If you dont want to win, if you dont want to even TRY, why do you even join games?!

While I agree in somewhat same things as SciencePro, I wouldn't be as radical in my words, but essentially he distilled the point I would've been saying. Diplomacy wins wars once the nations are of sufficient size, not ranting about things.

Still, pointers. I like arranging things into numbers or such, it seems.
1) Haven't you been "minding your own business"? I haven't seen you attack Ermor before now. I've seen you state over and over how imbalanced LA Ermor is, and I agree that in this point Ermor is a very very good nation. So would be Niefelheim, or Hinnom, or Sauromatia in similar position. Or Marignon.
2) I agree with Zeldor, LA Marignon should have absolutely no trouble with LA Ermor if played in anti-ermorian way (holy pyre, h3 recruit anywhere priests, excellent line holders against undead chaff - royal guards). I was certain Zeldor would be gone after Marignon started attacking him, and I started hearing stuff about Seraphs, but alas, no. Either Zeldor has some tricks up his sleeve I do not know of and deserves to win anyway since it'd have to be something awesomely good, or the player for Marignon didn't fully realize the potential of his nation.
3) I could do damage to Ermor, but he could counter my forces easily enough. I could counter Ermors forces easily should he attack me. I've got counters for any SC's he could throw at me, and I have a counters for any chaff he could ever throw at me. The problem is that I wouldn't gain anything by attacking fully forted nation, it'd take 2-5 turns to take each fort, and I could probably maintain reasonable siege against 4 forts per turn. Now, what does ermor lose with a castle? Gem income, which he doesn't much need, and which I don't much need. He wouldn't lose any income. I wouldn't gain any. He could take potshots with stealthy mages, teleporting SC's, longrange spells, and I would lose troops, he'd lose few SC's and mages eventually, but the point is that he wouldn't be throwing anything critical at me, unless in sufficient masses to really crush the force. Basically it boils down to being an horrible attrition war, which neither of us would enjoy or gain anything out of.
4) I never said I wouldn't be playing for winning the game, but when the situation is that there is no feasible way of winning the game, I do not play for attempting to win it anymore. I play for having fun. If I have a reasonable chance to win, I push for it.
5) I already stated that I should have attacked Ermor in the very early game. I made a mistake there. I might very well be in top nations now had I done it. I also might as well be very well conquered by you or Mictlan or heck, Patala. I just had an easy way to expand south and I took it. That took the first ~40 turns for me.
6) I've played with LA Ermor in a MP game, actually still am, but I'm not a major force. They have abysmal research (in midgame ~quarter of normal/high researcher rp-income) unless they get very lucky with sites. They have good mages, but they have very limited amount of them. They also have literally thousands of free troops, but they are of absolutely no use against a proper counter for them. In late game it is definitely a good nation that just requires loads and loads of micromanagement to be ran well.
7) Attacking Ermor now would give you a definite edge, and no-one else. Period.

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?

[Ossa]

@Kuritza, Quitti and Zeldor:

1)
During the middle game, when I first declared war on Ermor, I was winning. I was pushing him further and further with my H3 priests, holy pyres, untouchable def 19 royal guards and everything. Especially when I managed to cast a prot 30+ royal elemental to act as a blocker.

I managed to go the whole way up to Turku (sp?) with my army until...

... until Science took over, the old player forgot to teach him properly the existing NAPs and Zeldor talked him into attacking my.

When all of your lands are islands surrounded by Ryleth and suddenly that NAPed nation goes on a rampage in your lands you cannot leave your armies fighting Ermor.


If it wouldnt be for Ryleth, I'd have weakened Ermor enough before he summened his SCs. When Ryleth attacked me, Ermor again offered me a NAP, just to stress this point.

LA Marignon would have won a 1:1 war with LA Ermor, even with me playing it. Unfortunatly it wasnt a 1:1 war.


2)
The sea troll was a last ditch efford to clean some of Ermor's water provinces in the vain hope that Ryleth would take them before Ermor comes in again. Didnt work.


3)

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?

I guess he's implying that while it is fun if Ermor wins, it would be even more fun if all living nations would unite against a common enemy.

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Ossa

... until Science took over, the old player forgot to teach him properly the existing NAPs and Zeldor talked him into attacking my.

True enough, but such is diplomacy. I could have attacked you too, but that again would have made Ermor easily the most powerful nation. R'lyeh jumped the chance and now Kuritza is ranting about how Ermor is imbalanced and never again shall he play the game with Ermor and so on. I didn't want that. I was very much against Ermor around 10-15 turns ago, had plenty of armies on his border, and was ready to attack, then the fiasco with the staling occured. Basically what happened was that everyone was *****ing about everything, so I decided to stand back and let actions speak for themselves in-game for other players - so far I know that Man has attacked Ermor, and supposedly Abysia too.

I guess he's implying that while it is fun if Ermor wins, it would be even more fun if all living nations would unite against a common enemy.

And make him the top nation? How would that exactly change the situation? Then me or you would've needed to start a rantfest about how Man is overpowered and must be attacked, or I will never play a game with Man again since he's had time to grow with good strategic choices.

I like the new thread title by the way

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Quitti

And make him the top nation? How would that exactly change the situation? Then me or you would've needed to start a rantfest about how Man is overpowered and must be attacked, or I will never play a game with Man again since he's had time to grow with good strategic choices.

I like the new thread title by the way

Are are nuts?

I am not LA Ermor. I dont have thousands of free units rising from their graves every turn. And I would surely suffer very, VERY heavy losses by spearheading the attack on Ermor's hub of power, while you and Rlyeh could get some Ermorian lands (he cant really defend against us all) and grow stronger.
And yes, then you could unite against me. I've seen this happen, in games with, you know... experienced players. Leaders come and go, and this is what makes Dominions fun. Turtling and complaining how you cant win anyway wont teach you anything.

... nothing will.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Quitti

Still, pointers. I like arranging things into numbers or such, it seems.

Pointers from you. How cute.

Originally Posted by Quitti

1) Haven't you been "minding your own business"? I haven't seen you attack Ermor before now. I've seen you state over and over how imbalanced LA Ermor is, and I agree that in this point Ermor is a very very good nation. So would be Niefelheim, or Hinnom, or Sauromatia in similar position. Or Marignon.

I had NO opportunity to attack Ermor. I had no border with him, and still working on getting one (Caelums castles are between me and him, I just stop his hordes by sending SCs while my armies siege castles).

Originally Posted by Quitti

2) I agree with Zeldor, LA Marignon should have absolutely no trouble with LA Ermor if played in anti-ermorian way (holy pyre, h3 recruit anywhere priests, excellent line holders against undead chaff - royal guards).

He did. But Ermor has TOO MUCH spawn. For a while, trivial tactics you described seemed to work, but then rigor mortis, darkness (not sure Zeldor had to use it, but still) and Ermor's own SCs changed that.

Originally Posted by Quitti

I was certain Zeldor would be gone after Marignon started attacking him, and I started hearing stuff about Seraphs, but alas, no. Either Zeldor has some tricks up his sleeve I do not know of and deserves to win anyway since it'd have to be something awesomely good, or the player for Marignon didn't fully realize the potential of his nation.

Zeldor plays better than Ossa, for sure. But one cant fight overgrown LA Ermor alone, and Ossa asked for help, repeatedly. I guaranteed you and Caelum that I wont attack you if you attack Ermor, and even promised SC support.
Speaking of being nice and diplomatic... you just ignored me and turtled. Ermor is scary, ha ha.

Originally Posted by Quitti

3) I could do damage to Ermor, but he could counter my forces easily enough. I could counter Ermors forces easily should he attack me. I've got counters for any SC's he could throw at me, and I have a counters for any chaff he could ever throw at me. The problem is that I wouldn't gain anything by attacking fully forted nation, it'd take 2-5 turns to take each fort, and I could probably maintain reasonable siege against 4 forts per turn. Now, what does ermor lose with a castle? Gem income, which he doesn't much need, and which I don't much need. He wouldn't lose any income. I wouldn't gain any. He could take potshots with stealthy mages, teleporting SC's, longrange spells, and I would lose troops, he'd lose few SC's and mages eventually, but the point is that he wouldn't be throwing anything critical at me, unless in sufficient masses to really crush the force. Basically it boils down to being an horrible attrition war, which neither of us would enjoy or gain anything out of.

Lots of crap.
Ermor needs land to get spawn, and gems. Ossa needed help. By fighting Ermor you'd give Ossa some breathing space, and most importantly, if you dont stop Ermor, whatever the cost, he kills you. I told that before, nobody believed me. I turned out to be right, but you are too stubborn to accept it.
Oh, and about you being able to defend against Ermor.... What a sad joke.

Originally Posted by Quitti

4) I never said I wouldn't be playing for winning the game, but when the situation is that there is no feasible way of winning the game, I do not play for attempting to win it anymore. I play for having fun. If I have a reasonable chance to win, I push for it.

You lost your chance to win this game as soon as Ermor started growing so fast and his neighbours, including you, didnt do anything about it.

Originally Posted by Quitti

5) I already stated that I should have attacked Ermor in the very early game. I made a mistake there. I might very well be in top nations now had I done it. I also might as well be very well conquered by you or Mictlan or heck, Patala. I just had an easy way to expand south and I took it. That took the first ~40 turns for me.

I already stated that I promised not to attack anyone who attacks Ermor.

Originally Posted by Quitti

6) I've played with LA Ermor in a MP game, actually still am, but I'm not a major force.

Yep, Ermor takes skill to play right, just like any other nation.

Originally Posted by Quitti

7) Attacking Ermor now would give you a definite edge, and no-one else. Period.

Ganging on Ermor gives everyone an edge. And not trying to stop the leader is game-ruining.

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?[/quote]
I am saying that watching Ermor defeat everyone one by one and not even trying to win is not fun. What you do is much worse than just going AI.

Ok, now thats it. Zeldor can declare himself a winner, if his conscience allows it after everything that happened here.