Beware of Ashdod

[DonCorazon]

I brought up this point on Omni's Hinnom thread but thought it worthy of its own discussion. IMHO, there is no nation that so thoroughly dominates its age like Ashdod. Sure Hinnom and Niefelheim are powerhouses, but at least they have to contend with each other, along with some other pretty dominating EA nations like Lanka, Fomoria, Sauromatia. But in the MA, nothing comes even close to Ashdod. Their tool kit of dominating resources is frightening:

• Berserking, sacred Anakites with FR75, 50HP, high MR (15) high protection (14), decent combat stats for giants (Att 12/ Def 15) and magic weapons
• Recruitable Adon SCs with 3 misc slots. Since this nation will almost always have an E bless, protection gets jacked even higher with Bracers/bless double counting
• Heat +2 preference means Heat +3 an extra 120 pts to help with the high gold/resource scales for the nation. Fatigue for any non-heat nations, but no worries for Ashdod since most units are at least FR 50
• Ridiculously tough PD
• +15% forge bonus on Talmai Elders
• Archers with 16 protection, Range 50 and 17 damage bows
• Non cap sacred Zamzummite mages that can thug with up to D4 possible (they are D2E1 +D/E +D/E/S/F)
• “Nice” national summons

Because of their durability, the troops you recruit as Ashdod will likely rack up experience and thus improve their combat stats, while most other nations in the MA tend to have to recycle troops. Woodsmen, the other giant troops in MA (Jotunheim) are nowhere near as effective. No protection, low MR, low attack, no magic weapons. Pyth another strong MA nation will watch its non-sacred hydras get torn apart by regenerating / reinvigorating Anakites assuming the usual Ashdod E/N bless.

I suspect you will start to see Ashdod come to dominate the victorious nations. I am not recommending they be banned or nerfed but new players should beware that Ashdod may be like the Ermor/Ryleh of the LA - a nation that should be joined up against aggressively early on if it is your neighbor. Especially avoid them in games with hard research. I look forward to playing them if a game ever starts where the organizer hasn't already picked them

[Zeldor]

DonCorazon:

I think Talmai Elders can be even better SCs, if they can get someone to bless them. Zamzummites can get Invulnerability + Soul Vortex + self-bless.

They can also forge dwarven hammers at discount price to stack forge bonus. They can summon tartarians [probably the easiest nation to get to tarts with national mages], and don't forget about communion capabilities probably better than Pythium.

You cannot forget about high research too [8RP on build-everywhere sacred mages], so you can go even with Drain2. And Misfortun2 is no-brainer too as you can recruit fortune tellers to protect important provs from unlucky events.

[OmikronWarrior]

You're probably right, but I beat Ashdod in a MA game as Pythium. Essentially, I relied on multiple smaller armies and Harbringer thugs to take alot of provinces quickly. For the bigger confrontations, I relied on booster Soul Slay and Paralysis to neutralize SC's while Fog Warriors and Evocation helped win on the field. Of course, he'd been involved in wars up until my intervention and had negative scales allowing me to bring much greater resources to bear.

[cleveland]

*wonders where Ashdod is in relation to Shinuyama...*

[DonCorazon]

OW:
My one experience playing Pyth vs. Ashdod was in a hard research game where I got rushed early on, so those tactics weren't available. I do wish i was able to get more of his neighbors to attack but I have been diplomatically lazy of late.

I was able to slow him down with communion boosted Word of Power when he did not attack with full forces. By the time I got thunderstrike, it wasn't enough damage to stop the number of berserking/regenerating sacreds he could field. But I agree, they are not unbeatable, just need to beware of them, and they are not fun neighbors, especially on a hard research game.

Cleveland:
Yep, I continue my unbroken streak of neighboring Ashdod (Origin, ComfortZone), Gath (WheelofTime) and Hinnom (Hellscape) in my last few games. Though in CZ, we are on a suicide mission vs. another nation who killed &^-+...

[AreaOfEffect]

I'd much rather see people present some of the weaknesses of Ashdod, or explain an advantage that other nations have that they lack. The argument is that Ashdod has too many items in their tool kit for other middle-age nations to match them given equal player skill.

So far, the only weak points of Ashdod that I've observed is that their more expensive units are easy to target with the "Attack/Fire Large Monsters" command. However, that only helps you if you have something capable to taking on their SCs and sacred units. For those nations without their own thugs, I suggest using a few of the nasty ranged magical items.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

DonCorazon:

I think Talmai Elders can be even better SCs, if they can get someone to bless them. Zamzummites can get Invulnerability + Soul Vortex + self-bless.

They can also forge dwarven hammers at discount price to stack forge bonus. They can summon tartarians [probably the easiest nation to get to tarts with national mages], and don't forget about communion capabilities probably better than Pythium.

EA C'tis is actually better at Tartarians (also gets D4 on recruitable-anywhere mages, plus has Nature access for GoR). It doesn't much matter though because Ashdod, which is naturally playing with an E/N bless, gets a better deal out of Banquet for the Dead than Summon Tartarian.

A nice bonus point to Zamzummites: they have Robes. Since Prot value of Robes is non-zero, E9 boosts them. A typical Zamzummite will get Prot 9 or so after being blessed, which helps shield them from arrows and makes them better battlemages. It also means that thug Zamzummites can get Prot 24 or so on the body from Ironskin, which means you don't have to use Invulnerability if you don't want the fatigue/poison ability.

I concur, if you are playing MP, Ashdod must be taken out ASAP. Frozen Heart, Mind Burn, etc. are probably the way to go, although elephants work too.

One final point: DonCorazon mentioned Gileadite archers. I actually find that human slingers are superior when you actually need missile weapons, because Gileadite archers take forever to mass. Beware of Ashdod human slaves because Ashdod has access to buffs which boost even chaff to frightening levels (Strength of Giants/Weapons of Sharpness/Marble Warriors/etc.) and Ashdod can easily produce masses of human chaff (100 humans in a single turn, easy). Naturally, other nations can play this game too but my point is that if you try to exploit the weaknesses of giant troops Ashdod can shift easily.

Repeat, kill Ashdod ASAP because they are a steamroller.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

DonCorazon:
I think Talmai Elders can be even better SCs, if they can get someone to bless them.

In what way? I can't think of much that a 3S/3E/3F SC can do that a 2S/2E/2F can't, except that obviously you come out of buffing with lower fatigue. On the other hand, Adonim have built-in gear and can self-bless, and have better attack/defense and I think better HP. Talmai Elders could be good SCs but I don't see them edging out Adonim except in limited circumstances (you want a teleporting SC for fire-fighting, and don't have any slots to boost an Adon to 3S).

-Max

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

I'd much rather see people present some of the weaknesses of Ashdod, or explain an advantage that other nations have that they lack. The argument is that Ashdod has too many items in their tool kit for other middle-age nations to match them given equal player skill.

One main weak point for Ashdod is their dependence on their capital. Their only sacred recruitable troops are cap-only, as are their two best commanders.

I propose the following strategy:

1. Find Ashdod's capital. Cast Astral Window on it.
2. Cripple the capital with Rain of Toads, Raging Hearts, and other Unrest-causing spells. If you have spies, use those too. Crank that Unrest as high as it will go and keep it there!
3. ??? (Deal with the troops Ashdod already has ... somehow.)
4. Win!

Another weak spot is supply. Giants are hungry, and Ashdod doesn't get any native Nature magic to help them feed their troops. Many Ashdod players will probably design their pretenders with some Nature magic for the bless, so they'll get there eventually. Even so, the pretender is only one unit, and he/she/it will usually have more important tasks at hand than forging Cauldrons and Wineskins....

[Zeldor]

MaxWilson:

Talmai Elders have 8RP, Adon only 3. So for normal times you'd prefer them, for similar SC capabilities.

SlipperJim:

I wouldn't call Ashdod very cap-dependant. Most nations would love to have Zamzummietes as cap-only mages.