AH-64 Lethality vs. Infantry

[thatguy96]

Pazam said:
I agree that the lethality needs to be increased. Even when shooting from a hover 50m away from an infantry target [ie. on the adjacent hex] I have never managed to hit more than two people at a time. This doesn't seem realistic to me.

I would challenge this from what I've seen of gunship camera footage. One from Iraq which involved an AH-64 engaging a vehicle and personnel behind cover showed it using multiple bursts to kill less than 10 people. I would think that if spaced tactically, with a lack of airburst ammunition, that defeating whole squads of infantry in one burst is unrealistic. The tactics from what I've seen are not to spray the entire target area, but direct fire at specific targets, ie individual people.

I think what might need to be addressed is just how many rounds per burst the basic formulas are based off of, and then seeing if the ammunition capacity matches that and whether helos should have more gun ammunition.

As to rockets, they're notoriously inaccurate, though I do think they could use with a lethality boost.

Conclusion, guns seem to be relatively realistic for me, but rockets seem like they could use a little boost.

Video in question: http://www.militaryvideos.net/videos.php?videonum=3

[SGTGunn]

True, a single 30mm HEDP burst is not going to destroy a tactically deployed squad, but what makes the gun on the AH-64 so brutally effective (and I'm sure the same could be said for similar platforms) is the accuracy of the gun and sighting system. Using thermals (which eliminates or radically reduces the effectivenss of many forms of traditional concealment for infantry i.e tall grass, light vegetation, non-thermal smoke, etc.) an AH-64 gunner can pick off inidividual soliders like a sniper, very rapidly moving from target to target. "got him, got him, got....him, got those two...and...where is, oh yep got him." Especially against any kind of weapon team - SAM, ATGM, MG - where you have 2-4 guys in a small area by virtue of the weapom system they are manning - the 30mm is sheer murder. While the 70mm/2.75" Hydra/FFAR systems are not uber-accurate, they are not wildy innacurate either, and they are meant to be used as an "area" weapon - which is why they are typically fired in salvos of 2-4 rockets. HE or HEDP rockets with point detonating fuses are more of a supressing weapon, but with the airburst HE, submuntion or airbursting flechette rockets in inventory, you have very nasty troop killers. I think there is a similar issue with modern MBT co-ax engagements. As a former 19K M1A1 Abrams gunner & TC, I can personally attest to the incredible accuracy of the M240 Coax MG. The M240 uses the same gunner's primary and thermal imaging sights as the main-gun, saem laser rangefinder, crosswind sensor, etc. and as a result a good gunner can easily pick off individual soldiers (using the TIS) with short burts, working through a squad sized element in short order. As someone who as served as both a tanker and an infantryman, if someone told me to move cross an even slightly open area I knew was covered by M1's, I'd tell them they were out of thier minds. The thought of the Leclerc with a its similarly capable FC system and a .50 cal coax gives the grunt in me the shudders. (interesting aside, when the XM-1 was being developed, an advisory board of senior tanker NCOs and officers was used to help develop the tank. Many had combat experience in Vietnam, and one of their suggestions was a co-ax armament of either 1 or 2(!!) .50 caliber MGs. That would have been sweet. The 25mm bushmaster was also considered, and a prototype with a 105mm gun, 25mm & 7.62mm coax was built. The 25mm was ultimately deleted for cost.)

winSPMBT is one of my primary "escapes" from the day-to-day grind of Iraq, so I just want to say "Thanks"!

[thatguy96]

SGTGunn said:
True, a single 30mm HEDP burst is not going to destroy a tactically deployed squad, but what makes the gun on the AH-64 so brutally effective (and I'm sure the same could be said for similar platforms) is the accuracy of the gun and sighting system. Using thermals (which eliminates or radically reduces the effectivenss of many forms of traditional concealment for infantry i.e tall grass, light vegetation, non-thermal smoke, etc.) an AH-64 gunner can pick off inidividual soliders like a sniper, very rapidly moving from target to target. "got him, got him, got....him, got those two...and...where is, oh yep got him." Especially against any kind of weapon team - SAM, ATGM, MG - where you have 2-4 guys in a small area by virtue of the weapom system they are manning - the 30mm is sheer murder.

Agreed, but I think you get into a core game mechanic issue here. When infantry units get smaller the game assumes it more difficult to hit them within the hex (or at least this is the feeling I have always gotten), especially size 0 units like snipers. What we'd almost want is for it to stay the same and get more accurate as the target field was reduced allowing the gunner to concentrate on single targets. I would think this might not be a possibility within the game code.

SGTGunn said:While the 70mm/2.75" Hydra/FFAR systems are not uber-accurate, they are not wildy innacurate either, and they are meant to be used as an "area" weapon - which is why they are typically fired in salvos of 2-4 rockets. HE or HEDP rockets with point detonating fuses are more of a supressing weapon, but with the airburst HE, submuntion or airbursting flechette rockets in inventory, you have very nasty troop killers.

Also true. I'd like the see the statistics on usage of anything beyond HE rockets. I was under the impression that flechette rockets had fallen into disuse and that deployment of the M255 and WDU-4/A series had become extremely limited. There's also no airburst HE to my knowledge, and I'd say that the use of the M261 submunition warhead is probably not that widespread. Regardless, in game, the rocket weapon is most likely not designed to be anything but HE.

[Gooseman2448]

I think at the very least there should be more suppression. I don't know if the two can be adjusted separatly or not. I think the same applies to killing infantry with anything other than with infantry.

I don't think more killing is needed but, more suppression (pinned) is needed. A MBT 50m away firing everything will keep heads down if not make them run.

[Marek_Tucan]

Gooseman2448 said:
I don't think more killing is needed but, more suppression (pinned) is needed. A MBT 50m away firing everything will keep heads down if not make them run.

If it doesn't provoke some brave schmuck with hollow charge mine to try run into the blind spot and stick the charge somewhere

[Epoletov_SPR]

2 or so in one short burst would be quite good for an auto cannon, remembering that a hex is 50 metres (half a football field) across, and the guys are distributed tactically all across it. Also - even if exposed for the first burst, the target infantry will react by taking cover after receiving some fire (Pinned infantry is prone infantry).

Scale for the terrain tiles and the unit icons is not equal, so they are not as packed as it may appear.

Also recall that the rockets are now allocated in 2(?) rocket salvos as well, not whole rocket pods worth, as in SPII.

Should you wish to really see the helos do mass-murder then try shooting at a mass of routed infantry, firing into the central hex, you will get "splash" effect on the other squads in the same hex as the target, plus the ones in neighbouring hexes.

Cheers
Andy

It completely agree, bombardment from helicopters now is normally modelled.

[Gooseman2448]

Isn't that usually controlled by EXP and MOR levels?

I'm not an armor freak that thinks armor should always win. (AND I may just be completely wrong). Just seems suppression from AFVs are weak.

If you want martyrs increase the moral and experience and die for ALLAH.