Even in CB are black servants too strong?

[Wish]

all I am saying is I sent one in against dark vines, and he won. I sent one in against knights, and he won.

this is on level 9 indes. mind you he also had hells of bless bonuses, since I made a rainbow alchemist. (who had magics at 4 in all but two paths.)

[BigJMoney]

Agrajag said:
There's also a penalty in enemy dominion, and that bonus is percentile based, so even a huge bonus doesn't amount to much HP.

Wait, are you saying that a pretender with a Dominion of 1 who is in a 1 Dominion territory will have the same stat bonuses as a pretender who has Dominion of 9 and is in a 9 Dominion territory? Ie., 100% of his potential Dominion?

shovah said:
Another option instead of removing lifedrain would be making them have very low strength, i tend to boost the strength of mine alot (boots of strength, girdle of might and sometimes bearclaw talisman/lycan amulet) so reducing the strength reduces lifedrain which reduces their effectiveness. or you could give them a fixed (say 10ap) lifedrain attack so they cant drain too much.

Good point. I think in Dom3 they should have two abilities that do similar things. One would be an attack called "lifedrain" which deals X armor negating damage (apart from strength) and gives that amount back to the creature as life. Then, they could add a new ability called "consume life". Any damage a creature with consume life deals with any of its melee weapons causes it to gain that much life back. Ideally, creatures with this ability would only be things like awakened pretenders and high level summons.

=$= Big J Money =$=

[Endoperez]

The percentile-based dominion bonus means that a low-hp pretender or prophet doesn't get as much from high dominion as a high-hp pretender or prophet. Twice 10 hits is still just 20 hp, twice Virtue's hits aren't still that impressive, etc.

[shovah]

And having 4 thugs expanding by turn 30, all of which are stealthy is nice. Priests rarely, if ever seem to damage mine and with thier 26-28 prot and good defence almost no basic troops can hard them, they usually make enough with lifedrain to stay alive (although i kept playing that test, one of my servants lost and arm and his lifedrain in the process).

Another option instead of removing lifedrain would be making them have very low strength, i tend to boost the strength of mine alot (boots of strength, girdle of might and sometimes bearclaw talisman/lycan amulet) so reducing the strength reduces lifedrain which reduces their effectiveness. or you could give them a fixed (say 10ap) lifedrain attack so they cant drain too much.

By turn 30 (as ulm) in that test i had 2 earth boots and dwarven hammers, and rainbow mage (3 in almost all, higher in death and earth) so i had good research and forging. I had 6 (nearly 7) construction and 2 in conjuration on hard research.

This was just a test and i made all the servants without even searching for any sites due to my forge bonus, had i used my rainbow mage to search for sites i would have had great income and would have had the black servants out only 2 or 3 turns later at most (since they used almost exclusively lvl 2-4 items my smiths could make), i agree there are counters but the fact that 1 guy i had out before turn 15 can solo a priest,20ish crossbows (maybe 30) and 20 knights is just wrong.

The fact that i can have 4 of them (or possibly better versions) out by turn 30 while still producing masses of arbalests (mainly for SC's/very tough troops life neifels), black plate infantry (when backed wtih priests or mages can handle practically all chaff/undead) and smiths/priests (research, preaching and battlefield support) and still have some gems, cash and good research power just seems overpowered (although ulm does need all the help it can get). Also black servants with a good shield (charcoal is good), marble armour, horror helm and amulet of anti magic has great prot, defence, routing ability and priest resistance.

Id prefer (as i suggested earlier in this post) them to have reduced strength but not lose lifedrain, that could make black servant packs useful. 3 or so at a time, all with good prot and some fear and berserk (lycan amulet?). Very hard to kill and with their cold aura+alot of attacks could be useful but take lnoger to get working.

[Saxon]

You make a strong case for Ulm, but I am still not convinced. I have lost too many of them to feel they are overly strong. Last night I lost one to Charm and another to Blindness. Their MR is not great. That said, I am nervous about how the one I lost to Charm is going to be used against me!

[Wish]

heh, its true, also: if it gives ulm a little something, then it certainly helps. I mean ulm needs help. cheap viable thug chassis are something that could make ulm work.

[Boron]

The black servant is so-so. He is good at raiding other players. Full gear is not worth it imho, but if you simply give him a shield + an armor he is already quite ok and costs not that much. But he can only be used as a raider.

Vs. real enemy armies he is way way too fragile. Since he is undead and has low hp, it is not worth it to invest too much into him.
A tartarian can survive a few dust to dust or lightning bolts etc., a black servant does not.

But by being available so early in the game he is a perfect raider. Unless your enemy is lucky and has priests or a useful mage as pd the black servant can easily beat pd.

It is not so easy to defend vs. them when they are raiding. you would need to detach 1-2 mages or some priests to every important province to stop them reliable.
You can do this, but if you do this your enemy has already achieved an important goal: to severly slow you down.
Imho the black servant is fine as he currently is.

[Morkilus]

My only issue is that he's not SUPPOSED to be an uber-dude (as in, flavor of the game). He's supposed to be a cheap stealthy summon for scouts, since Ermor doesn't get scouts. If he was some sort of hero or banelord, that would make more sense.

[Wish]

maybe they need a shadow lord, similar to a bane lord, but made of the same stuff as shades and black servants.