Combat in SEV

[Lucifer Domine]

First I gotta say I can't believe they have a post icon that looks just like me! I had to use it

Anyway, from everything I've datamined through on interviews and posts it appears that combat in SEV will be real-time only. This disappoints me. There were two main features that attracted me to the Space Empires franchise: the ability to mod the game and turn-based tactical combat. I hate real-time strategy games BECAUSE of the combat, trying to micro-manage multiple units at once in real-time is a pain, even if you can pause the game to give orders or slow speed to a crawl. I love real-time combat for first-person type games or simulators where I only need to control one unit, but not for my strategy games.

This means that for multiplayer games you will be forced to use the "strategic" computer-resolutions for combat, which, quite frankly, sucks. No matter how I attempt to script AI, it always comes down to the superior force winning, when it should be the tactics of the commanders. I can defeat superior forces in tactical combat by outmaneuvering them and outsmarting them. The AI always tends to get backed into a corner or outflanked when I let it handle strategical and I lose units I could have saved. There are limitations on what are possible with formations/strategies that can only be corrected with on-the-fly orders (seeing an opportunity and seizing it).

The reasons for me to purchase this game have all but vanished. Sure, there are some nice new features to the game (3D systems, hard-points, government, etc) but the features that have me STILL playing SEIV are gone. Shrapnel may not notice the few customers who decide not to buy SEV and they will attract some new players with the real-time combat, but they will lose alot of the hardcore chess-style strategy players. Some might buy the game anyway, but I doubt it will have the longevity the other SE games have for those like myself. It remains to be seen how much of a margin of their consumer base this style of player holds and undoubtedly they will find out when they go to market SEVI if it does not contain turn-based combat, as those who might have purchased SEV anyway to try it out will have decided whether or not they like it by then.

I wish there would at least be an option to make tactical combat turn-based (and no, pause and slow features do NOT cut it, there has to be a way for tactical combat to be played in multiplayer through Hotseat and PBEM - the two primary ways I play multiplayer) otherwise I'll just have to hold up hope for SEVI or perhaps another SF game that DOES implement turn-based tactical combat. I might play the demo, but I refuse to endorse removal of this feature so I will never purchase the game without it.

[dogscoff]

My understanding is that it won't be player-controlled realtime like in RTS games, it will simply be a 3D rendering of an AI-controlled battle. In other words, tactical combat is out, very pretty strategic combat is in. However I could be wrong on this.

The good news is that AI has not only been improved for SE5, but there will be the option to write your own AI and plug it into the game See note 1. We have a lot of coder-type people playing this game, and I'm sure many of them are just itching to start tinkering with an SE AI's brains, so if the modability extends to the decision-making code used in combat (and I wouldn't be surprised if it did) then be prepared for some fantastic battles.

Oh, and Shrapnel aren't publishing SE5. Some other publisher (I forget the name) is doing it.

Long live Malfador. Long live SE. Long live Shrapnel. Long live that other publisher.

1 again, this is a semi-substantiated rumour based on interviews, chat sessions and so on; features subject to change, interest rates can go down as well as up, please read the Terms and Conditions, blah blah blah...

[douglas]

I'm really not getting why pausing isn't sufficient for you. Pause should work quite well enough for hotseat play, and no version of SE has ever had tactical combat for any other multiplayer mode. If you use the automatic pause-every-x-seconds feature which I believe has been officially confirmed to be a definite inclusion for SEV combat, the only real difference between that and turn-based is that you can't exploit the sequential movement for truly absurd tactics that really shouldn't be possible. As for tactical combat in PBEM, are you CRAZY? That would take forever to play just a single turn whenever combat happened, especially in large battles.

[Ragnarok]

dogscoff said:
Long live that other publisher.

That other publisher is Strategy First.

[Renegade 13]

dogscoff said:
In other words, tactical combat is out, very pretty strategic combat is in. However I could be wrong on this.

This all depends on your definition of "tactical" and "strategic" combat, but please remember that Dogscoff is not a beta tester and may have some information wrong.

I love subtlety.

[Suicide Junkie]

I can defeat superior forces in tactical combat by outmaneuvering them and outsmarting them.

That's only because you aren't playing against other humans...

Meat >> AI

I know how hard it is to give up the control (I was a tactical combat junkie for three or four years!).
But I can assure you that once you get the hang of things you can do quite a lot.
One of the hard things to learn is that you need to adjust your ship designs to fit the strategies almost as much as the strategies to fit the design. When it all comes together, though, it is amazing.

Amazing x300 ships, and x5000 fighters
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...an1_turn04.jpg

[Kana]

Lucifer Domine said:
when it should be the tactics of the commanders. I can defeat superior forces in tactical combat by outmaneuvering them and outsmarting them.

And the reason you are such a tactical god, is because the AI isnt that smart in SEIV. So really the only fair way to ever do combat in SEIV, and probably SEV is via strategic, and allow the AI to play out the combat, while you sit by and cringe in horror at the possibly outcome...

Kana

[Phoenix-D]

There have been muliple references to combat being pauseable, which is sort of pointless if the player can't control it.

Also, one of the best TBS games around, Combat Mission, has real-time combat.

Yes, you read that correctly. It stays paused, players issue orders, and then the game runs for a set period of time with no player ordering allowed. It works quite well.

[Lucifer Domine]

No, I was referring to playing other humans, SJ. Among the friends with which I play, I have the best grasp of tactics. I tend to win most of the time. The fun for them usually consists of trying to find ways to spread my resources thin by teaming up against me.

As for PBEM tactical combat, it has been a while since I've used PBEM, mainly I use hotseat. Apparently it was another game that had turn-based tactical combat that worked in PBEM games... MoO2, maybe? I know that also had PBW support. Maybe I am getting that confused and remembering networking with my brother and a few friends to play then saving the game and basically doing a few turns a night over the course of several months....

Like I said, I will give the demo a shot and see what it's like when I have access to it. I might just be over-reacting and might actually LIKE the way SEV does it, but I just am miffed at losing truly turn-based tactical combat. There are times I prefer turn-based to simultaneous for a change of pace. Feels more like a computerized board game then.

Since you mentioned strategies/designs, I am curious... is there a way to make the AI use smaller ship models instead of just sending waves of massive fleets composed entirely of its largest ship around? I like to use a mix of vessel and never truly abandon any ship size (escorts make perfect boarding shuttles). I also tend to keep a defensive fleet in every system I control (patrolling in case of cloaked ships lurking about) and all my critical planets well defended by units (obsolete models get shipped off to front lines for combat disposal and to "unimportant" colonies for SOME protection).

[Captain Kwok]

Like Douglas mentioned, there is a stepped-pause feature. This means you can halt the combat every X seconds (i.e. 1, 2, 4, 5 etc) automatically. This can be used to create essentially the same situation as traditional SE:IV tactical combat with the exception (and improvement to fairness IMO) that the ships will execute their orders and movement at the same time.

Alternatively, you may even choose to control a single ship in the combat (pretending you're its captain) while the combat runs.