UK infantry organisation.

[Listy]

Haveing had a good look through the UK infantry I don't belive that it's an accurate and correct arangement.

From talking to serving nad Ex-soldiers from all branchs THis Is the UK's organisation of it's infantry.

Comand Section:
Troop comander, Troop Sgt + Specailists (RTO, 51mm Mortar gunner Etc).

3x Rifle Sections, Each with:
8 men,
2x LMG's (Brens, GPMG's, LSW's or M249 SAW's),
2x LAW's

1x support section
5 Men,
2x MMG's

In the current OOB, you seem to have combined the Support and comand sections.
In some formations the Support section is dropped.

Any coments?

[Mobhack]

Listy said:
Haveing had a good look through the UK infantry I don't belive that it's an accurate and correct arangement.

From talking to serving nad Ex-soldiers from all branchs THis Is the UK's organisation of it's infantry.

Comand Section:
Troop comander, Troop Sgt + Specailists (RTO, 51mm Mortar gunner Etc).

3x Rifle Sections, Each with:
8 men,
2x LMG's (Brens, GPMG's, LSW's or M249 SAW's),
2x LAW's

1x support section
5 Men,
2x MMG's

In the current OOB, you seem to have combined the Support and comand sections.
In some formations the Support section is dropped.

Any coments?

Well, as an ex infantryman (A (Black Watch)co 1/51 Highland), and as the whole point of writing the original mobhack way back in the first place was to fix the UK OOB that SSI had provided, then my interest in the UK OOB is guaranteed

As you are talking the 3 rifle sections and 2 sub-sections, that is the modern rifle platoon org, and not the old WW2 to 80's org. (Altought the old org really tended to split PHQ into the officer's party and the support under the platoon Sgt anyway in practice, and in the manual as well "Rifle platoon in battle 1968" I think was still current in 1977).

We do not use "command sections" in the game - they have a gigantic "kick me" factor in SP games. Try SP3 - the first thing you do there is to kill the little micro-infantry comapny HQs you see..

Suport+command is therefore rolled into 1 fire support section (or PHQ for the early org - still just a heavy inf section). Some of these have various versions (including ditching the mini mortar - our 2 inch mortars back in the 70s lived in the armoury, a waste of 2 men in platoon HQ that could be used more usefully elsewhere). The various versions allows for the usual UK local variations on task or individual batallion's preferences, like replacing worthless mini mortars with something which uses 2 men and the weight more profitably (another GPMG say).

So - what formations are missing the support section, or are you just confused by earlier orgs using "rifle section" as a title for the support section, which is a modern org thing?. Please give formation slot number etc when reporting possible errors in the future - "In some formations the Support section is dropped" is simply too vague a statement to properly investigate unless I am prepared to blindly dig through the OOB. Also - dates would be handy too, so I dont have to look from 1946 to 2020 through all the infantry formations!

Cheers
Andy

[Listy]

HAH! Now I know why you have the 1/51 formation in the Old Dos game, I always wondered that (That's Also Why I've included A Sigs troop in My OOB...).

OK, Now that You've explained that I understand.

What about the odd load outs on rifle squads? (I noticed it in a game set 8/2005). One squad has 2 LSW's and a SAW. Surely it should be 2x SAW's or 2x LSW's?. Also the ammo on the LAW shouldn't it be 2?

Also Commando formations seem odd. Since 2000 Commando regiments have been switching to the Commando 21 organization, which is 3x Commando Squads, and 1 Support section of 5 men, with a 51mm mortar, A GPMG, and A sniper's rifle.

Finally on the commando side of things, the BV202/6 has a bren AAMG in 2020. The Viking is the current Bovo, and it's lightly armored, and can carry a .50.

Can I start pestering you for Trojan AVRE? Terrier Airmobile AVRE (Based on the ASBV/FRES program). I've got the Icon Done for it.

BTW where do I sign up for OOB work as well?

[cusbut]

Just putting my two pennies worth in here

Modern section equipment is very flexible depending on the threat situation, The lSW has not been withdrawn so it is still issued as a normal personal weapon 2 per section, I cant see this changing for quite some time due too money considerations, after all the LSW is nothing more than an a slightly heavier SA80 with a bipod. In Iraq were the armour threat is low the law is kept in the armoury and section firepower is boosted by either a gpmg or minimi depending on availability.

In SPMBT this could be shown by duplicating the modern section and changing at weapons for support mgs thus giving you a choice of sections depending on the scenario you are playing

regards Cus

[PlasmaKrab]

Since these are not standard squads, you could as well edit them in dedicated scenarios to reflect task-modified kit. Just change the squads' weapons when deploying them, drop the LAWs for additional MGs for instance.

In battle cases, you cannot predict what the enemy will field, and anyway that'll do for a surprise element!

[Listy]

I thought I'd seen something about that on an Armynet document.

The Avrage laod out of infantry was something horrid like:

2xLSW's, 2xSAW's, 2xUGL's and the Sections 2 LAW's! I would have loved to include that In my version of the OOB, but I Didn't think it would go down well, Slightly to much power gaming there.

BTW I'll bet you that htere are still plenty of infantry units feilding LSW's at the moment, Heck most still haven't got L85A2's! It's only units that go out to Iraq get the cool kit.

[Mobhack]

cusbut said:
Just putting my two pennies worth in here

Modern section equipment is very flexible depending on the threat situation, The lSW has not been withdrawn so it is still issued as a normal personal weapon 2 per section, I cant see this changing for quite some time due too money considerations, after all the LSW is nothing more than an a slightly heavier SA80 with a bipod. In Iraq were the armour threat is low the law is kept in the armoury and section firepower is boosted by either a gpmg or minimi depending on availability.

In SPMBT this could be shown by duplicating the modern section and changing at weapons for support mgs thus giving you a choice of sections depending on the scenario you are playing

regards Cus

I already have provided sections with different "extra" weapons such as an added mimimi.

There is also the "light infantry" org, which is for places where armour is rareer (S leone say) and so the ATW are less emphasised. Extra LMG instead etc.

However the SP system is not good for "mix and matchh" - you need to create a new unit to say, simply change the AAMG from the LMG to a 50 cal for no real game impact. That then uses an entire slot for the variant (an issue in the OOBs with large unit counts) and adds more maintenance hassles.

You cannot simply do things (in this game system) like with the WRG tabletop rules (swap out a 2 points VAAMG to a 5 point VAAHMG or remove it completely if not required). SP units are bought as entire "lumps" with no customisation allowed in-game.

Cheers
Andy

[Mobhack]

Listy said:
I thought I'd seen something about that on an Armynet document.

The Avrage laod out of infantry was something horrid like:

2xLSW's, 2xSAW's, 2xUGL's and the Sections 2 LAW's! I would have loved to include that In my version of the OOB, but I Didn't think it would go down well, Slightly to much power gaming there.

BTW I'll bet you that htere are still plenty of infantry units feilding LSW's at the moment, Heck most still haven't got L85A2's! It's only units that go out to Iraq get the cool kit.

With only 4 weapon slots, you would need to make a weapon item like "2 LSW and 2 Minimi" ..

And the LSW is still standard issue - it is not retired, it just was not much use as an auto support weapon for precisely the same reason the BAR was not that useful. No changeable barrel, and the mag was loaded from underneath, so had to be changed by the firer - no way an No 2 could hot-swap it like the top-mounted mag on a bren.

So the LSW is probably still in the section, but most likely used as a personal weapon more than any sort of support SAW. It does have use as a "marksmans" rifle as the longer barel and bipod makes it a useful weapon for longer range potting, if not quite a real sniper weapon. But not a "sniper rifle" in game terms - so if needed, you can safely ignore the thing.

Cheers
Andy

[Listy]

Thats what I ended up doing, as I had reduced its HEK by one.