Counter Intelligence - Page 2

PsychoTechFreak · #11 May 5th, 2001, 07:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Daynarr:
Also, it would be a good idea if you guys could send a mail to MM with complete description of the problem and couple of games as and example. It will help a lot in fixing this problem.

I have done this already , about 3 weeks ago. ...But I will try it again, maybe it has been lost, maybe I'm too insignificant, I don't know...

skigrinder · #12 May 6th, 2001, 12:18 AM

Intel & CI is such an interesting part of SE-IV that it seems a shame to not use it.

I've been trying to understand the finer points of CI and have the following questions:

1. Is it true that if you dedicate more points to CI projects than the combined total of opponents intel projects that none of their projects will succeed against you?

2. Do I need a separate CI project for each opponent or are all opposing intel projects treated generically?

3. It seems that if a CI project runs to completion and there are no additional CI projects in my queue, opponent�s intel projects start to succeed against me even though I have plenty of points (this usually happens because I can�t have more than 12 CI-III projects).
Is this an accurate description of reality?

4. Assuming that the above is accurate, does it make sense to create one large, long-term CI project as a repository for CI point allocation?
What I�m suggesting is the creation of a CI�IV project with a cost of something like 20M points. This project would reside in the intel queue and be responsible for all CI.
If you want to dedicate all of your points to CI, put this project at the head of the queue.
If you want to run offensive intel, put the CI-IV project at the tail of the queue.
In either case, the �distribute evenly� option should be disabled.
I�ve tried this and it doesn�t feel like cheating. Please let me know what you think.

5. If the idea listed above makes sense, what is an appropriate setting for the �Effect Amount� field in this new CI-IV project?
Does this field determine how many opponent projects are countered?
If so, then this value should be a large number (12 projects from 20 opponents).
Why does this limit exist?

6. Is it possible to extend the intel queue beyond 12 projects?
The current limit of 12 projects seems ridiculous for a galactic superpower.
The limiting factor should be intel points, not a hard-coded number of projects.

7. Is it possible to view all intel projects on a single page?
Maybe a scrollable table with the following fields:
Project-name Target-opponent Cost %-complete Months-to-complete

8. Is it possible to have more information in the log related to completed projects?
For example, it would be nice to have a single log message for CI listing all opponent projects defeated (detail like this exists for combat log Messages).

9. Is it possible to alter �Puppet Political Parties� so that populations become angry before a coup?
It seems pretty unreasonable that a planet of 8 billion Jubilant people would suddenly rebel in a month�s time.
If a successful PPP project decreased happiness and only caused rebellion on angry planets, it would give the player a chance to correct the situation (i.e. troops, temporal vacation facilities, etc.).

Sorry for the long-winded post.
Please let me know if you think any of these ideas have merit.

Thanx.

capnq · #13 May 6th, 2001, 04:59 AM

I've barely begun to try to understand CI, but I'll take a few shots at the easy answers.

quote:
4. Assuming that the above is accurate, does it make sense to create one large, long-term CI project as a repository for CI point allocation?

I thought that was the purpose of the more expensive CI-2 and CI-3.

quote:
6. Is it possible to extend the intel queue beyond 12 projects?
The current limit of 12 projects seems ridiculous for a galactic superpower.
The limiting factor should be intel points, not a hard-coded number of projects.

7. Is it possible to view all intel projects on a single page?
Maybe a scrollable table with the following fields:
Project-name Target-opponent Cost %-complete Months-to-complete

8. Is it possible to have more information in the log related to completed projects?
For example, it would be nice to have a single log message for CI listing all opponent projects defeated (detail like this exists for combat log Messages).

These are all hard-coded design decisions; they could be changed in theory, but I'd rather see programming time devoted to bug-swatting and new features. The numbers were likely picked for convenience; there's no "realism" reasons for them, but having standardized interface windows saves coding time.

quote:
9. Is it possible to alter ?Puppet Political Parties? so that populations become angry before a coup?
It seems pretty unreasonable that a planet of 8 billion Jubilant people would suddenly rebel in a month?s time.
If a successful PPP project decreased happiness and only caused rebellion on angry planets, it would give the player a chance to correct the situation (i.e. troops, temporal vacation facilities, etc.).

This is a good idea that's been suggested before.

------------------
Cap'n Q

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 06 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 06 May 2001).]

Phoenix-D · #14 May 6th, 2001, 08:08 AM

One more time: Puppet Political Parties is just that. NOT a rebbelion, but a political party (or leader)friendly to you inserted into power. No reason for the populace to become angry before it hits.

Phoenix-D

PsychoTechFreak · #15 May 6th, 2001, 09:28 AM

I have made extended tests with several human controlled empires, so I had the control over every action and reaction. But I have to say: Errare humanum est... I could be wrong with some observations:

quote:
Originally posted by skigrinder:

1. Is it true that if you dedicate more points to CI projects than the combined total of opponents intel projects that none of their projects will succeed against you?

2. Do I need a separate CI project for each opponent or are all opposing intel projects treated generically?

All of the accumulated CI points defeat against every (more than one) attack, even from several empires in the same turn, even if the CI points are distributed to 12 projects.

quote:
Originally posted by skigrinder:
3. It seems that if a CI project runs to completion and there are no additional CI projects in my queue, opponent�s intel projects start to succeed against me even though I have plenty of points (this usually happens because I can�t have more than 12 CI-III projects).
Is this an accurate description of reality?

No, my opinion to it is this: A CI project where you have spent points for should stay, never be completed, even if it's full. If Intel attacks occur, they should SUBSTRACT from the CI stack. If the stack is empty, intel attacks should be successful.

quote:
Originally posted by skigrinder:
4. Assuming that the above is accurate, does it make sense to create one large, long-term CI project as a repository for CI point allocation?
What I�m suggesting is the creation of a CI�IV project with a cost of something like 20M points. This project would reside in the intel queue and be responsible for all CI.
If you want to dedicate all of your points to CI, put this project at the head of the queue.
If you want to run offensive intel, put the CI-IV project at the tail of the queue.
In either case, the �distribute evenly� option should be disabled.
I�ve tried this and it doesn�t feel like cheating. Please let me know what you think.

As it is now, you have a problem with it, because sometimes, I have seen it with every 2nd attack, the CI project will be completed. All your accumulated points so far would be gone, very dissatisfying if you have accumulated 200,000 points and loose them against a 5,000 point attack. But I think it would be a good idea, if Intel would work like my statement before (No. 3).

quote:
Originally posted by skigrinder:
5. If the idea listed above makes sense, what is an appropriate setting for the �Effect Amount� field in this new CI-IV project?
Does this field determine how many opponent projects are countered?
If so, then this value should be a large number (12 projects from 20 opponents).
Why does this limit exist?

I don't know the meaning of 'Effect Amount' but IIRC from former test runs with several empires attacking at once, more opponent attacks are countered than this value. But I have to check this...

6. to 8. Good ideas, would be an improvement to the game (Edit: ...but shouldn't be highest priority)

First of all, I hope the Intel problems are going to be solved in one of the next patches...

[This message has been edited by PsychoTechFreak (edited 06 May 2001).]

DirectorTsaarx · #16 May 8th, 2001, 07:38 PM

Have we heard from MM on this? I think each person playing the game has their own answer to the question of how Intel & Counter-Intel work. It would be nice to know the "real" answer...

raynor · #17 May 9th, 2001, 07:21 AM

Thanks for the reminder. It seems like it was only just yesterday we were waiting for patch 4 to come out so we could re-test the Counter-Intelligence weirdness and email Malfador. Maybe this weekend I'll send an email to Malfador. Did you already test this and send an email to Malfador DirectorTsaarx?

DirectorTsaarx · #18 May 10th, 2001, 03:30 PM

I haven't had time to play in over a week; I'm barely able to keep up with the board

. Heck, I haven't even loaded v1.35 yet... I downloaded the patch, but I wanted to finish a couple things in a 1.30 game first. I should just quit & restart with a 1.35 game (and just as I was about to finish my three ringworlds in a trinary star system... sigh...)