Explanation from D2 grognards wanted.

Vger · #1 January 14th, 2004, 11:26 PM

Hi,

I'm feeling a bit bummbed, so I thought I would ask here and see if someone could help me understand what happened.

I had Gifted 5 Iron Dragons, given them regen rings (which do work on them--prepatch) and antimagic medalions. I send them roving around in the cps' backfield, just to so confusion and beat down their larger armies.

I lost all 5 of them in this battle (I have a save, if someone needs it. Again, this is ver. 2.02)

I was Pangea, facing Man. He had 2 Jugs, a couple dozen Winter Wolves, 1 Water Elemental, 1 Tarrasque, some shamblers, an Ice Drake, 50-60 cannon fodder, a Sea Troll King, a Shambler King, a Bard, a Mother of Avalon and 2 normal priests.

My IDs kicked serious booty and I didn't lose any of them until the very end. I'd already killed or driven off all but about a half dozen fodder/human leaders, all the special troops/leaders and summoms were dead. I'd already gotten the message that their army was routing.

All that's left is the Shambler King, a militia and a Clockwork Horror. My IDs sort of stumble around themselves in a huddle, ignoring the three units. The militia routs. Then, my IDs just ... die. One by one. No spell notice, nor anyone who could cast, they just die.

I did have adjacent provinces they could have retreated to. Not that they needed to. Certainly, they could have killed the remaining 2 units. I don't understand and it has stollen some of my enjoyment of the game.

Thanks for any assitance,
V'ger gone

Catquiet · #2 January 14th, 2004, 11:49 PM

Sounds like a bug

[ January 14, 2004, 21:52: Message edited by: Catquiet ]

johan osterman · #3 January 14th, 2004, 11:54 PM

It might be the case that the battle Lasted past 50 turns. At that point the attacker retreats. Iron Dragons being mindless do not retreat, they die. Not sure if the auto retreat kicks in when one side is allready routing though. It might be that Man couldn't rout for some reason, and that another 25 turns passed, at that time the attacker is killed. This mechanism is intended to stop battles from going on forever, which could otherwise happen with immobile units.

SurvivalistMerc · #4 January 14th, 2004, 11:55 PM

Did you patch before the battle. Sometimes incompatibility like this can cause odd results. I think a lot of folks have had unusual happenings in games started pre-patch subsequent to the patch.

Nagot Gick Fel · #5 January 15th, 2004, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:
It might be that Man couldn't rout for some reason, and that another 25 turns passed, at that time the attacker is killed.

If all the defender's units are routing at that point but can't retreat - eg, because of paralysis - it would be better to kill the defender instead.

Vger · #6 January 15th, 2004, 12:31 AM

Hi,

Thanks everyone, especially Johan. This was on the old Version, not patched. Man could retreat, he had at least one and probably several places to go.

The battle Lasted for a long, long time, without turn numbers I can't tell, but it could well have been 50 turns. The two remaining units were not paralized, so they could have routed.

Something I don't understand from what you said, Johan. Since they were all Gifted with Reason, would they still be mindless and not be able to retreat? (Not that they SHOULD have retreated in this circumstance, but I'd rather they rout than die.)

Still bummed, but less confused,
V'ger gone

[ January 14, 2004, 22:33: Message edited by: Vger ]

johan osterman · #7 January 15th, 2004, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vger:
Hi,

Thanks everyone, especially Johan. This was on the old Version, not patched. Man could retreat, he had at least one and probably several places to go.

The battle Lasted for a long, long time, without turn numbers I can't tell, but it could well have been 50 turns. The two remaining units were not paralized, so they could have routed.

Something I don't understand from what you said, Johan. Since they were all Gifted with Reason, would they still be mindless and not be able to retreat? (Not that they SHOULD have retreated in this circumstance, but I'd rather they rout than die.)

Still bummed, but less confused,
V'ger gone

Perhaps they were fatigued to unconsciousness then? By not routing I meant that they were kept from routing in the battle rather than if there were any routing possibilities on the strategic map. There is no consideration of strategic routing possibilities in the tactic phase. The strategic rout possibilities are determined after all battles are resolved, and thus cannot enter into the tactic battle phase.

Mindless units that get the gift of reason remain mindless. Meaning that they never acquire experience are immune to soul slay etc. Golem is the only mindless unit that starts as a commander, IIRC. If you want some sort of rationale you might think of them as having some sort of artificial or soulless intelligence.

Bowlingballhead · #8 January 15th, 2004, 01:28 AM

Actually, it does sound like the 'no-retreat' clause went into effect, doesn't it? Long battle - 25 turns are taken up just killing the enemy's army. Turn 25 hits, and the sole remaining unit capable on Man's side (the militia) retreats. The iron dragons and clockwork horror cannot retreat, since they're mindless. Instead they shuffle around stupidly for another 25 turns, until the auto-death effect kicks in. The only thing that seems questionable is that there'd have to be some effect on the shambler king (slave collar, maybe?) that made him fearless.

Nagot Gick Fel · #9 January 15th, 2004, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Mindless units that get the gift of reason remain mindless. Meaning that they never acquire experience

Actually they can acquire experience. At least in Doms 1 they could. Sent a Golem in the Arena once, he came back with an heroic ability as well as the trident. Then I thought "What if I empower a Golem in astral so he can wish for fame?". Bingo - it works!

johan osterman · #10 January 15th, 2004, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:
Originally posted by johan osterman:
Mindless units that get the gift of reason remain mindless. Meaning that they never acquire experience

Actually they can acquire experience. At least in Doms 1 they could. Sent a Golem in the Arena once, he came back with an heroic ability as well as the trident. Then I thought "What if I empower a Golem in astral so he can wish for fame?". Bingo - it works!

Heh. Didn't know that.