patch 2.06 out

[Kristoffer O]

>Three questions involving luck and modding.

>#1 Luck scale changes the frequency of events. Right now by 5% per level of scale. I have seen people state that this means that misfortune raises the chances of events and luck supresses. Is this correct? Or is this 5% a positive modifier in both directions? If it isn't a positive modifier in both directions, is there anyway to mod the scale so it can be?

Positive in both directions. Misfortune increases chances of bad events as do fortune.

>#2 Luck scales currently affect quantity and quality of events. Some players have suggested adding economic modifiers to luck. I'd like to do some experimenting with such ideas (and other scale effects that are non-standard). Is there anyway to do this? Or are we locked into what the scales affect, and only have the ability to wiggle the percentages?

Currently wiggling only.

>#3 The mod tools seems to allow the adjustment of scales via overall numbers that get applied across the board. It has been suggested that it might be good to have the scales ramp up in effect, I.E. instead of Order being a 7% adjustment per level of scale, possibly make it +7% for +1, +12% for +2, and +17 for +3. I am totally unsure if this is a balanced approach, however I want to know if it's even possible to experiment with.

Not currently. In the prehistoric age (1997) scales costed 10 for the first step, 20 for thesecond and 30 for the third (or perhaps it was the effects, I do not remember). I think we were concerned that a progressive cost would make people go for -3 and never use -1 scales. Progressive costs in one direction might have some merits and do exist in some games where you choose attributes.

3/4 Yes I worded it wrong.

Stellar Fires is nice don't get me wrong, but I don't know if you are seeing my point, let say it more clearly.

My main point with the Air is the Communion effect with Orb Lightning. The power of casting the spell (Yes a Level 1 Spell) in a communion increases the power of the spell (Suddenly casting 3, 4, 5 lightning bolts, with a higher precision) and reduced the fatigue (so they can cast more and don't kill slaves).

Because you customarily go for something with normal Marginon doesn't mean you might not go for something else with another theme. That can be just as effective Instead of Enchantment 4 it might be another path.

Maybe I don't see it because its after your initial expansion and you don't initially get the spell it's usefulness is limited to only a few turns before it can be totally negated (Storm/SoS). Part of the reason I don't put all my eggs in the xbow basket.

Also you seem to be saying that the early money might be suddenly overpowering vs mercs, but I've found in my MP games, that unless you are a few select nations, you arn't going to get mercs (Ermor, Ulm for example) even if you alchemize 4 gems instead of 1. (That is for the most part, the people I play with bid on mercs and know their usefulness, they don't forget like others may)

This isn't saying it doesn't happen, but when I think "I'm alchemizing" it's not for mercs as much as it is for cash I'm going to use.

Saying Drastically may be a bit much, getting quite a bit while only losing very little (Sacred units)

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:

My main point with the Air is the Communion effect with Orb Lightning.

The power of casting the spell (Yes a Level 1 Spell) in a communion increases the power of the spell (Suddenly casting 3, 4, 5 lightning bolts, with a higher precision) and reduced the fatigue (so they can cast more and don't kill slaves).

OK, got the synergy part . Still, I'm far from convinced that 1 Royal Navigator casting level-4 Orb Lightning with 4 Chartmaker slaves to support him is better than 1 level-2 OL + 4 level-1 OL. That's an extra round spent on communion, and 2 less bolts. Add 4 more slaves, and you have 5 bolts were you could have 9 - and it only gets worse as you add more slaves who could cast these OL themselves. OL has a relatively short range and air mages get precision bonus, so your shooting is unlikely to suffer much from inaccuracy. If that's surgical precision you want, better have an extra Navigator or Chartmaker cast Wind Guide. That spell should be on your "research ASAP" list anyway. And Last, OL is a low-fatigue spell, so fatigue isn't a good reason to use a communion to reduce fatigue by a few points.

Because you customarily go for something with normal Marginon doesn't mean you might not go for something else with another theme. That can be just as effective Instead of Enchantment 4 it might be another path.

Well, the crossbows are the same in both themes, and in both themes they're the best troops at your disposal for a fast early expansion. With Conquerors I could beeline for Wind Guide to good effect, for the same research cost as Flaming Arrows. Is it what I'll do with Conquerors? Almost certainly (unless I can imagine something better). Is it as effective as Flaming Arrows? Unfortunately, no. Not by a long shot.

Maybe I don't see it because its after your initial expansion and you don't initially get the spell it's usefulness is limited to only a few turns before it can be totally negated (Storm/SoS). Part of the reason I don't put all my eggs in the xbow basket.

Storm doesn't totally negate crossbow fire, it just make it very inaccurate. Flaming crossbows will still maim deep concentrations of troops to some extent. And by the time I'll see Staves of Storms, I'll have Wind Guide anyway, to partially counter Storms. Plus, only a couple nations can forge Staves of Storms as fast as Marignon can churn out crossbow armies, at least until midgame. And be assured I'll have a few other eggs in my basket at that point. That's more than enough to justify researching Enchantment 4 and recruiting crossbows.

Also you seem to be saying that the early money might be suddenly overpowering vs mercs, but I've found in my MP games, that unless you are a few select nations, you arn't going to get mercs (Ermor, Ulm for example) even if you alchemize 4 gems instead of 1. (That is for the most part, the people I play with bid on mercs and know their usefulness, they don't forget like others may)[/QB]

So what's your point? That in your games, Marignon never get mercs? Sorry, I'm a bit confused here. Mercs are great meatshields for the kind of Marignon I play, and I use them - although not only for that task.

This isn't saying it doesn't happen, but when I think "I'm alchemizing" it's not for mercs as much as it is for cash I'm going to use.

Ahem, you mean spending that gold on mercs isn't really "using" it? Strange. Anyway, remember I wrote something along the lines "I typically use this extra early on mercs", and I'm sure I wrote 'typically' - I can also find other uses for that extra gold, but early in the game mercs is the most common example.

Saying Drastically may be a bit much, getting quite a bit while only losing very little (Sacred units)

Hmmm, 'quite a bit' vs 'very little' still sounds too much like 'drastically' to me, but let's agree to disagree. I stick to my position that the themes are fairly equal in potential, and that the main theme has an easier early game.

[Edit: typos]

[ January 13, 2004, 23:04: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Desert Tombs has problems? I didn't find that the case. Sure its not as good as C'tis base but not much is. I don't think themes have to be as strong as the base races as different races arn't as strong as each other. DT worked fine when I played it. Pretty darn tight really and giving up on nature for fire on Sauromancers seems appropriate as you don't need nature for supplies and in genreral the focus on the whole growing thing has declined.

Dual bless effect races again as Kristoffer still seemed all at sea on what I mean:

All the successful dual bless effect races I designed (two 9's) where order3/misfortune2-3 races. It was the only way I had found to get the points for the magic and keep enough gold to pay for expensive sacred troops. In my opinion this is not a realistic option anymore so its back to square one and the only one of my dual bless effect races that I'm fairly confident will still work ok is Jotun. Most people felt that two 9's was hopeless in the first place so my opinion is not a conservative one.

cheers

Keir

[ January 13, 2004, 23:58: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:
I think a little more disturbing would be creating themes that are drastically more powerful as opposed to the normal themes (Read: Conq of the Sea with the Royal Navigators (2 Air, 2 Astral, 1 Random) ?! and the Chartmaker Communion Slaves as opposed to normal, Fires of Faith, or Diabolic Faith Marginon)

I need more time to look at it, but I'd hope they would do more balacing towards making the themes 'evenish'

I need to look at it more myself, but I think that 'drastically' is a bit exagerated:

- CotS costs 25 more points

- CotS lost most of its ability to generate extra early income through alchemy

- Lost the wonderful flaming crossbows (Wind Guide is not nearly as effective, besides it's easier for the other Marignon themes to find air-1 mages to cast Wind Guide, it's much harder for CotS to find fire-2 mages for Flaming Arrows)

- Diabolical Faith has access to Mind Duel-proof communion.

- (minor point, but still) Air/astral is a bit redundant: Teleport/Cloud Trapeze on the same unit. Can't really see a synergy in air+astral. At least fire+astral gave Astral Fires.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
Desert Tombs has problems? I didn't find that the case. Sure its not as good as C'tis base but not much is. I don't think themes have to be as strong as the base races as different races arn't as strong as each other. DT worked fine when I played it.
Keir

I prefer to have themes very close, if not on par, with the base race. Otherwise diversity will be lessened in multiplayer. You can do fine with a race which is weaker than an other, but its not a proof that nothing should be done.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
All the successful dual bless effect races I designed (two 9's) where order3/misfortune2-3 races. It was the only way I had found to get the points for the magic and keep enough gold to pay for expensive sacred troops. In my opinion this is not a realistic option anymore so its back to square one and the only one of my dual bless effect races that I'm fairly confident will still work ok is Jotun. Most people felt that two 9's was hopeless in the first place so my opinion is not a conservative one.

Caelum, Abyssia, and Machaka all have powerful holy troops and can take +3 temp. Abyssia is even semi-immune to Death. Water/Nature for Caelum, Fire/Earth for Abyssia, and Fire/Earth or Death/Nature for Machaka are doable without crippling scales. Astral/Fire is cheaper but less useful IMO. Caelum can take drain easily (cheap high-level mages and owl quills) and Machaka can too (Randoms for owl quills, and eventually skull mentors with 2 death).

I think dual-blessings are still possible, but you have to skrimp on the castle OR order OR productivity... so your capitol-only sacred should only be limited by gold OR resources, not both.

P.S. Ashen Ermor can go triple-9, a 4, and still have 9 dominion and massive research. That makes some hefty Knights of the Sepulchre...

P.P.S. I think I'll test them=)

[ January 14, 2004, 07:22: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Zen:
Kristoffer,

I think he main reason you don't hear much about Desert Tombs is it is still semi-decent because of the base strength of the entire Nation (C'tis).

With the new change of having fire instead of nature for the Desert Tombs Sauromancers who knows. I personally like Nature quite a bit for them, but this way they are assured to be able to cast Banefire (which is nice but high on the research chain). Though you still do have Shamans.

Yeah, I think DT could have nicer magical versatility now. Doesn't it also give them Skeleton Archers, and with the right booster items, King of Banefires? And they still have Shaman for vinemen summoning.

Plus they have a use for their fire gem income, which is always nice. And fire magic always goes well with a heat scale (sauromancers have decent PREC too). A sauromancer with his random in astral or blood can lead a shaman communion too.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Caelum, Abyssia, and Machaka all have powerful holy troops and can take +3 temp. Abyssia is even semi-immune to Death. Water/Nature for Caelum, Fire/Earth for Abyssia, and Fire/Earth or Death/Nature for Machaka are doable without crippling scales. Astral/Fire is cheaper but less useful IMO. Caelum can take drain easily (cheap high-level mages and owl quills) and Machaka can too (Randoms for owl quills, and eventually skull mentors with 2 death).

Go for it Saber - I think you are mostly wrong but I'm certainly keen to see other peoples experiance. I have tried all the things you mention except Ermor, which I don't really play, and my opinion is based on having tried these options and many, many, more. Sure you can come up with a race - but is it a decent one?

I would warn you that there are major problems involved in treating nations such as Abysia as Bless Effects nations. 1 strat move troops who can only be built in their capital make a really frustrating basis for a race as the game progresses. With Abysia its the mages you have to work on and they are so sap with their fire magic that it doesn't really seem worth it in my tests with dual bless effects but one earth9 is a goer.

In the end there is only one way to get an answer to the impact of the patch on dual bless effects races and thats to play them. I have played them extensively pre patch and IMO this catagory of races has been butchered to such a degree that we only speak of it because it was once viable. Sure you will get 1or2 two 9 races but I don't think it will be enough to talk of a Category of race designs. In truth dual bless effects races were borderline pre the patch with only the best looking like they have what it takes for MP.

I'm not really annoyed about what I've lost. Johan O. made it fairly clear awhile back that he didn't see any problem with returning to the old scales and its impact on dual bless effect designs would be minimal. While I think he was wrong in his assessment at least I knew what was coming. I didn't enjoy giving up on my main area of race design but I can cope.

Ciao

Keir
[I edited the post as it was too grumpy, I guess I'm missing my toys - Keir]

[ January 15, 2004, 00:50: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]