Mistake in PPB data?

[Grandpa Kim]

In PBW games, I find I get PPB about the same time the other players get phased shields. Honestly, it's been so long since I even researched PPB, I forget just how good they are.
I've learned from Fyron: go for APB!

[Phoenix-D]

Most of the stuff that seems obvious, isn't.

You can get Meson VI a LOT faster than APB XII, for example and do 1.75 dmg/kt at max range. Torps? 2.5 dmg/kt vs APB's 1.67 at rng 6 and 2.16 at min. The fire rate cuts that in half, but they were likely built as counters to things like emissive armor and crystalline armor.

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by UseOfWeps:
Sorry for resurrecting a long dead issue. I only started playing reasonably recently, and didn't see anything in the Dubious guide about missing levels, just under costing. So I thought I had a new angle, but more likely someone else has noticed the discrepancies in damage increases and posted it here before me.

/UseOfWeps.

Your post about the PPB was very on target and don't let the fact that it has been discussed before scare you off the topic.

You did an excellent job of showing the problem and I for one appreciate it. Thanks.

[spoon]

I find that the strength of the PPB varies with the size of the game... Some games they dominate, other games they are wasted research. KOTH games (usually quick, 1 vs 1 games on small map) generally don't see them as much. In a game where allies are trading tech, they can dominate the midgame. But by the time the end game rolls around, they are usually replaced with the APB.

Other suggested tweaks I've seen that seem good:
- considerably reduce the damage for levels 1 and 2
- reduce damage on all levels by 5-10
- give it a -10% to hit
- increase the Rads cost (which is already quite high)
- make Physics 3 a prereq instead of physics 2 (maybe swapping it with Cloaking Technology)

Another factor that might make the PPB seem so amazing in your group is "groupthink" -- since everyone is using it, esp the winner, it appears that it is the only weapon worth using. It is a good weapon, but in certain situations (mostly economical), I think the Meson BLaster is the better midgame choice. And if my research is low for whatever reason, the lowly DUC IV can sometimes suffice.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You can often be just as effective, if not even far more effective, by rushing for Combat Support 2 and Sensors 2 instead, as well as training.

Definitely. Don't research past DUCs until you have these areas researched.

[UseOfWeps]

Originally posted by spoon:
Another factor that might make the PPB seem so amazing in your group is "groupthink" -- since everyone is using it, esp the winner, it appears that it is the only weapon worth using.

In my current 6 player game, 3 folk are basically out currently, at turn 52. The other 3 of us are pretty even, one guy is no racial tech using PPBs, one guy is organics and I'm religious with APBs, currently at APB7. Once I finish up my combat techs over the next few turns, I should be rolling out battlecruisers with a 2-square range advantage over the PPB ships, and using a custom strategy of max range/ nearestx4 I hope to be able to pick off the PPB ships from distance.

I had said to the guys at the beginning of the game that I thought PPBs were too cheap and I wouldn't be using them, but one of the other guys doesn't have my scruples. So I intend to show him the error of his ways. My post about balancing the PPBs were more from the angle of the strange damage increases rather than the cheapness of the research, but obviously it has a nice side effect of adding a couple hundred k to the cost to max PPBs. I think I'll make these changes in our next game - now that all of us are more at home with the game I think the other guys will see my point.

/UseOfWeps.

[primitive]

Hmmm,
While the PPB is a bit unballanced because of the cheap research, its by no means the �berweapon some think it is. The Talisman however is so unballanced many games forbid the religious tech alltogether. The poor guy in your game with PPB and no racials is at a severe dissadvantage, while the organic guy at least have a glimmer of hope if he know how to fight a religious player

[PvK]

I actually think PPB II is about as good or better than the higher levels, because the range and cost to damage ratio is so good. 5000 research is sooooo cheap too.

PvK

[Wardad]

PPB is good but has these drawbacks:

1. It is expensive in terms of minerals and rads. I really adds up to a lot of maintenace.

2. It takes research to get to the PPB tree, And consumes research.

It may be better to research Shield depelters and APB.
SD trees off the shield field which you typically research anyway.
APB has twelve levels. So it would take a minimum of 1.2 years to research it.
Spending turns researching other weapons could delay the APB and SD.

Don't under estimate DUCs. They are cheap to research and pack a good punch. They are expensive when compared to APB.