Proposed 'Quick Fix' for some Combat 'Anomalies' - Page 4

Barnacle Bill · #31 February 5th, 2001, 09:24 PM

Talenn:

Alternating moves in which everyone gets the number of movement points their engines entitle them to is an abstraction compared to simultaneous movement, but having to stop a spacecraft in order to fire is not an "abstraction". It is just plain wrong. The thing being modelled is in actuality continuously in motion. Making ships stop to fire is just arbitrary. I find that far more disturbing than the idea that only one weapon type would be viable. Sure, it is cool to have options, but you can have a very good naval combat game (in space or otherwise) where only one type of weapon is in use. You can't have one where ships have to stop to fire, IMO. That is the logic behind my complaint. IMO, this "fix" is worse than the problem it is supposed to cure.

Daynarr:

My comment regarding the impact that the proposed change would have on my enjoyment of the game was not intended as an insult to anyone. It is just an honest expression of my opinion. SE4 is certainly not perfect, and I'd be happy to see more changes to improve it. However, I am enjoying as it is right now. I would not enjoy it anymore if this particular change was made, and in such a way that I could not undo it in my own data set. If I don't enjoy it, I won't play it. I'm only in this for the fun.

Nitram Draw · #32 February 5th, 2001, 09:29 PM

Maybe fair was the wrong word. Balanced might better describe what I am looking for. After all who wants to be in a fair fight, I need every advantage I can get

The ducking in and out does seem wrong. I'm am not sure what the solution should be but the current tactical combat certainly gets old. I hope someone can come up with a workable solution.

Tomgs · #33 February 5th, 2001, 11:22 PM

Perhaps stopping all movement would be too drastic but adding movement penalties for firing would help. Perhaps some weapons like missles would have more penalties then others or the penalties should be moddable including 0 delay for all weapons if you want. A solution that is modifiable would be much better than a hard coded drastic change that some would like and some dislike. I personally would not mind a movement penalty for firing especially if you could move your full range then fire as an option. That would stop a lot of the move, fire, then move again strategies but would still allow full movement and firing. Otherwise someone would design a ship with high shields and/or armor and just not fire a few rounds to "catch up" with a faster but firing opponent.

Talenn · #34 February 5th, 2001, 11:49 PM

Tomgs:

Thats exactly why I posted that suggestion. IMO, its the best solution. A movement point penalty for firing based on the hull (and modifiable) would make everyone happy. Some could use it make smaller ships more viable. Some could use it to completely alleviate the hit and runs and 'missile dance'. Folks like BB who dont like it all could simply set the penalties to 0 and be none the worse for it.

Hopefully other ideas will come along that clear up some of these problems, but until then, I'd like to see a quick fix implemented. Anyone else have any further thoughts on this? I'd like to reach a reasonable consensus before Emailing MM. Bill? Would a configurable option work for you too?

Talenn

Zanthis · #35 February 6th, 2001, 12:42 AM

If we're talking about mobile vs static, I don't have any problem with missile dancing. That is the weakness of static defenses. Too bad if your pretty defensive bases get ripped up by missiles. Support them with ships and/or give them fighter bays.

If we're talking mobile vs mobile missile dancing, just teach the AI that if his enemy steps just into range and fires missiles, *back off* and let them miss. This would force you to close to a range in which he is unable to flee out of range of your missiles.

If we're talking mobile vs mobile beam dancing, I can understand the opportunity fure people. However, it isn't that bad. If both sides are the same speed, he cannot escape being in range when you go (unless he damages an engine). If the person jumping into range is faster, well, speed is very important. The bigger ships don't have it, so let the little guys dance with beam weapons.

Besides, this is what missiles are for. If he's beam dancing you, he's too far inside your missile envelope to escape.

Just teach the AI to get out of the way of missiles and I suspect it'll all sort itself out.

dmm · #36 February 6th, 2001, 12:54 AM

Four comments:

1. I like the latest quick-fix suggestion by Talenn, if it is implemented in a mod-able way. I also like the opportunity-fire suggested by BB. I don't see them as mutually exclusive, and I don't see either one as open to exploitation.

2. Solely as a quick fix, missiles could be modded to do less damage, and also to be easier components to destroy. These mods would allow a player to charge missile ships (losing some of his own), pin them against the edge of the combat map, and then quickly dispatch them. That is exactly what the AI attempts to do now, and it would make the missile dance done by human players less effective.

3. The long-term solution, as I've said before in other topics, and will say again here: Missiles should not always hit. They are supposed to be CAPITAL ship missiles, so they should have problems hitting an escort. A miss shouldn't destroy the missile though. It should just overshoot the target by one space, then proceed normally. That would reward missile ships for firing at less than max range. (You wouldn't want to do #2 if this were done. In fact, you might even want to increase their damage done.)

4. A long-term solution that would help the AI with all combats would be to give it a small look-ahead ability like chess or checkers programs have. Even one turn would be a huge improvement. And it would vastly improve strategic/auto combat as well, so it would actually speed up the combat part of the game, despite the extra CPU time req'd.

Tenryu · #37 February 6th, 2001, 01:54 AM

[quote]Originally posted by God Emperor:
[b]Will upload them into the Mod Archive when I get home from work in about 7 hrs time.[b][quote]

Much thanks Emperor. Got it. Can't wait to try it and some Hredeek's Suggestions.

Nitram Draw · #38 February 6th, 2001, 02:52 AM

No matter how tactical combat is changed I don't think you will ever make it "fair". One side or the other will always have an advantage, this is why we experiment with new ship designs.
The only thing that shoud be done, IMO, is to make changes that help make tactical combat more interesting and fun or correct an obvious error in the way it is handled.
The missle dance etc. does not seem to make much sense but firing out of your opponents range makes perfect sense.
Of the ideas suggested I like the loss of movement points for firing the best. It seems reasonable and maybe not to difficult to implement.