Tien Chi! Sigh . . .

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Having "played" the allunits game, it seems that Barbarians Kings theme gets awfuly few new units, The Khan, Barbarian Horsemen and (possibly) Master of the Dead.

I don't have the full Version yet, but i just want to bring out my opinion:

I would like to see more Barbarian units with BK Tien, Barbarian units getting pillage bonus and getting Khan heroes (insted of immortals).

Some of the changes suggested on the heavy vs. light thread a while back would help BK too. Strategic mobility was one of the Horde's greatest strengths, yet it is all but useless in Dom II (you can only move one province into enemy territory, same as plodding hoplites). Move and pillage order would go well with a pillage bonus, too - and it's perfectly appropriate for BK.

I don't know what other barbarian units you could add, though - the Hsiung-nu weren't exactly known for their infantry. Would a sacred elite cavalry be appropriate? I don't know that much about religious beliefs of the Hsiung-nu or similar tribes, but if Arco can get a sacred hoplite and Ulm can get a sacred black knight...

Chariot troops would also fit S&A Tien.

Some people have proposed extra restrictions on chariot troops for S&A (like 1/castle/turn), but I don't think this is necessary. Dom II already has a mechanism to keep a given troop from being raised too quickly: resource cost. It's entirely reasonable for a chariot to cost a lot of resources. (Especially if the normal chariot troops are armored like the nobles.)

In any case, I like the idea of a chariot troop for S&A, too.

I'm not sure how to boos the economy of S&A... If BK would get troops with pillage bonus, they could just pillage provinces.

Fixing the overall turmoil/luck problem would help. I'd have done a lot better in my first S&A game if I hadn't lost over 1/3 of my home province in the first ten turns... with luck 2. Order doesn't just boost your income directly, it also protects you (some) from crippling events which are otherwise quite common even with a luck scale.

One way to boost the economy is to lower troop costs. The S&A CM is already insanely cheap for his abilities (250!), the Master of the Dead (which both BK and S&A get) is a 75 cost sacred priestmage (great researcher with a magic scale) and the Master of Five Elements is pretty cheap too IIRC - about on par with a Sauromancer or High Seraph. I haven't played Barbarian Kings yet, but maybe the barbarian horsemen should be cheap to recruit compared to their power.

Another is to lower building costs - BK would be a good candidate for cheap temples (what did they use for temples anyway?), S&A for cheap labs.

Pillaging isn't going to be an effective way to supplement your economy until you can do it without sitting still, IMO. Move and pillage is a necessity to make pillaging an effective strategic option. (Fear the Vikings, fear the Mongols.)

S&A tends to get a slow start (IMO) because of their magic dependence. Their higher base gem income and powerful mages at bargain prices don't help that much if you don't yet have the research to back them up - and even a "bargain" price is still a lot on an early game income. Celestials take no research but you need powerful mages (or a pretender with the right paths) to summon them and priests to get the most effective use out of them. Maybe a combat pretender could help offset their lackluster military. Of course chariots could help too.


The CM and Master of Five Elements could also benefit from the addition of more cross-path spells (there are already a pretty good amount of cross-path items, but most spells are single path). Mages with a diverse set of magical abilities are often less useful than mages with a high level of only one path because there just aren't that many things to do with multiple paths. It's more effective to cast one powerful spell repeatedly than alternate between several individually weaker spells.

I have no problem with S&A being a nation of relatively weak military and powerful mages. But the powerful mages have to be powerful, and low levels in many paths doesn't seem to be that effective. Most rituals are closed to the CM (without items or empowerment).

Hmm - that gives me an idea. Would it be possible for S&A to pay a reduced cost for empowerment? Say 35, 15, 30, 45, ... instead of the normal 50, 30, 45, 60, ...? A reasonable gem investment could turn a CM into a real magical powerhouse (especially once he started pulling out Power of the Spheres and maybe a communion...) and shore up his astral weakness too.