Primitives for proportions?

[Loser]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
...they should get a small amount of rads, it would make more sense to have rad-free, giftable "basic" techs available to space-faring races. ... you could have a set of "rocket engines" and so on that are available to normal races, but aren't particularly useful (because they are slow, inefficient) except as gifts to primitives. They would be perfect for primitives, who can maintain them easily because they don't use rads. Also, it means the primitives could maintain it but not repair it- or at least, they wouldn't be able to repair the engines, although they could probably fix the crew quarters or bridge if necesasary.

This idea I like, but there is something I do not understand: I thought both maintainance and repair costs were determined by the original cost of the component. If this is true, than anything the Primative can maintain, he can also repair. Anything he cannot repair, he cannot maintain.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Originally posted by dogscoff:
Of course you could just gift 100000 rads along with the ship...

This solution of yours, I think, is the better solution.

"I have something for the glorious nation of little-bear-people. Here is a ship, it comes with instructions for how to run it."

"Yub yub!"

"Here are some appropriately packaged radioactive elements, you will need these to run this ship."

"Det luktar flingor har."

"No, do not open the package. Do not use the contents of the package as condiments. Do not use these resources in any way other than as you are directed by the instructions. Hey you! Put that down!"

Originally posted by dogscoff:
I'm not sure about superior infantry, but they probably ought to be about equivalent. It's worth remembering that they will be completely unable to build anything other than infantry for the first X turns (until they get uplifted)... (Build infantry, build more infantry, yubyub)

You are absolutely right here. No real need to buff the Primitive Infantry, as there will be more than enough of it.

Originally posted by dogscoff:
Also, although it's easy to destroy them, they would pose so little threat that most (human) players just wouldn't bother. Maybe put plague prevention 2 on their cultural centres, and allow them to upgrade to 3 or 4 after uplift. The only trouble with this is that human players would find a way to exploit this "free" plague-prevention tech.
Finally, since half the racial point selections are irrelevant to them, they would all probably have very high reproduction and happiness traits, which (I think) would go some way to countering the effect of plagues.

I think there are many reasons to plague them. They have a homeworld full of facilities. Once the population is wiped out there is no militia to deal with, making an invasion that much simpler. And even if you can only fit 400,000,000 of your own people on their world; it will keep its full complement of facilities. Even if they're junky facilities, it is well worth the trouble, in almost any circumstance. After all, another player can pull your friends away from you behind your back, but to take a planet form you, he will need to deal with your face... or something.

To resolve this, I think it would be appropriate to either make them invulnerable to all plagues, or to give them, as you recommended, level 2 or so in plague resistance and make plagues harder to research. No a whole lot harder, but some. As powerful as it is, plague is pretty easy to get a hold of in a normal game, I do not know how it is in Proportions.

Additionally, the anti-plague tech can be made Primitive only, then players could not get it.

You are very right about it being more realistic to leave the Primitives vulnerable to plague: see Battlefield Earth (or rather don't see it, it was poor, and don't read the book either, it's just a Parable of Scientology so just forget about it).

Or you could just leave them vulnerable to plagues and see how unbalancing it makes the game to leave this simple exploit open to players. I think leaving Primitives in such a manner would eliminate from them any possibility of adding something to the game, but I do not know.

Originally posted by dogscoff:
*some stuff about Dirt, Steam, and Space races*

The way I see it, Dirt Races would produce almost no resources; maybe just the slim Mineral and Organic they need to make infantry, and almost nothing more. If you want to give a Dirt Race a ship, you will need to give them enough resources to keep it running for a while, that's a whole lot of all three resources.

I'm assuming these are not Neutral Races, only because I find great amusement in letting the little buggers out of their starting system. Dirt Race combat AI would center around loading up infantry in any ship you give them, heading for the nearest inhabited planet, and invading.

"Oh great, the Ewoks just turned on me."

"What? How bad can that be? They're just Ewoks."

"I gave them a couple of transport ship with WPs. Those transport ship had shields."

"So."

"I take it you've never faced invasion by thousands of teddy bears with guns... I never should have Uplifted them."

Dirt races get no ability to research, and have no tech tree to climb. They are completely dependant on benevolent Uplift

Out off all the things usful to a player, Dirt Races would probably only get Resupply upgrade to one of their facilities.

Steam Races would have Infantry units highly superior to those made by Dirt Races. They would have the ability to produce large amounts of Minerals, Organics, and maybe a little bit of Radioactives. This would mostly be useful only for trade, unlike Dirt Races who aren't much good for even that, but they will be building things.

Steam Races should have the ability to Research a little bit. Just enough to slowly move up their own tree. Mostly the results would be seen in Infantry and Armor, with a few upgrades to their facilities available. In the long run, Steam Races will have capabilities much like those humans currently have, with petty WPs that fire sad little missiles and perhaps the capacity to mine their own sector. They might, topping out their tree, even be able to build a few extraordinarily expensive fighters. But they never get a shipyard, or drones.

Steam Races will be easier to Uplift than Dirt Races. Then they can get upgrades that add the Repair ability at one of their facilities, among other things.

Space Races will have Infantry, Armor, and rather pitiful fighters at, or very near, their beginning. They can produce Radioactive resources, but not as well as a Real race. They will start with the petty WPs and sad little missiles that Steam Races end up with, and can get better, maybe even some ineffective Direct-Fire weapons.

As Space Races advance, they will gain the ability to produce better, cheaper fighters, better weapons, and maybe even a tiny little space station. They may get drones. At their top, Space Races will get Escorts, Colony ships (yes, they _can_ expand) and, if they're lucky, mine layers.

Both races that are capable of research can get better Versions of their own techs through Uplift. And, based off Uplifted techs, can research even better Versions. Perhaps that would be where Steam Races get Fighters and Space Races get Colony ships (let them start with Colonizing components, just don't give them a ship large enough to fit it).

It should be a trade off, probably for something the Real Race really wants the Steam or Space Race to have. Something like: you Uplift them the Resupply Depot upgrade they will, from that tech, research all kinds of things.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Originally posted by dogscoff:

quote:

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You can mod neutrals.

Excellent (rubs hands together, in a Mr Burns style)

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Yeah, but why? The only difference to Neutrals is they all use the same file set, and they cannot leave their system. Neutrals, as I understand it, are not extra players. Even with Neutrals you cannot go over 20 players.

Originally posted by dogscoff:
What it will probably do is ... fill the transport with ewok warriors and catapults and go invade someone.

That, at least, would be the plan. Go 'Woks!

Originally posted by dogscoff:
Just make it less effective or more costly than the real thing, then real players will have no reason to use it.

Cost is such a funny issue with Intel, is some ways it actually makes it better. I think it would actually be better for Primitive Intel to cost less.

But, as you said, the layered approach works too.

If no one else bites, one of us may have to take up modding, Dogscoff. This sounds way to amusing.