Error in Abn mtr unit?

[Weasel]

It is the US OOB 81mm DF, but you are correct checking other country OOBs the indirect mortars have a speed of 2, the US 81mm OOB has a speed of 3 as does the CDN 60mm DF mortar. But I was just coming to delete that post but you got here before me.

So never mind; my thinking was that if a patch is being put out isn't it to correct game errors and not just release scenarios?

USA unit 516 Abn 81mm mortar
USA unit 497 50cal M2HB

However don't worry about it as all mortars seem to have a move of 2 or 3; in fact it is the 50cal that is moving too quickly if you just go by weight.

I was only trying to help and not be a bother.

[jp10]

Originally Posted by Weasel

Playing my turn and the 81mm DF can only move 1 hex at a time cross country, speed 3. The 50cal HMG can move 2 hexes cross country (speed 4). The 81 mortar, complete, weighs 89 pounds whereas the M2 browning 50cal complete weighs 128 pounds. Each has 4 men per tube/mg so that isn't a difference.

Yeah I know, you are rolling your eyes and going "oh brother" but the 81 should have the same speed as the 50% heavier MG.

Sorry

The 81 is going to break down into 4 components for ground tactical movement while the M2 will be in two groups.

A M2 With 4 men would have two hump the ground mount with two on the gun. All 4 will carry ammo and accessories.

The 81 tube, bipod, baseplate and sight/radio would each be toted by a crewman. While the crew might have a round or two with them the ammo would actually be carried by the grunt platoon they followed in movement.

In ground mount deployment this would allow the M2 MG to move and setup more decisively while the mortar will need to coordinate a more complicated operation to get in action.

[Weasel]

I humped the 50cal, never a mortar. You are right, two on the MG, 1 on the tripod (that is all we used) and 1 carry ammo (2 cans). The ammo is too heavy to carry along with the MG or tripod.

[Suhiir]

The BIG difference between the .50cal and the 81mm mortar is the mass of the ammo. While the weapon itself may mass more/less you also have to consider the ammo.

[jp10]

Me and another did a 50 yard dash with an M2 in the desert when we hit a rattlesnake at night.

[Weasel]

That would make me run too. We were on exercise in Yakama desert (Ft Lewis) and during the night we had one rattlesnake curl up beside a guy (we were just sleeping on the ground with nothing else), and one curled up on the butt of a guy's rifle. None near me that I know of.

Yes the mortar ammo is heavier but the crew also doesn't carry all the ammo (but then neither does the HMG crew). I was just an observation, I wasn't trying to raise Cain.

[Weasel]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

The BIG difference between the .50cal and the 81mm mortar is the mass of the ammo. While the weapon itself may mass more/less you also have to consider the ammo.

Actually the 81mm round weighs between 9-10lbs, while a can of linked 50cal weighs 35lbs. The mortar crew does not carry the ammo for the tube except for the 4 ready rounds, the rest is carried by the battalion. 4x10 = 40lbs making the mortar now 129lbs, while the 50 with 2 cans of ammo (although the gun commander normally carried 1 but we will go with 2) will now weight 199lbs. Thus the 50 still weighs more by almost 50% but moves faster.

**no need for a thanks **

[Suhiir]

Depends who's military you're talking about with regard to transporting ammo. Yes, most western militaries are highly motorized, much of the rest of the world is not.

Being a Jarhead we tended to rely on our boots not our vehicles for transport and almost everyone carried one of either MG, AT, or mortar ammo in addition to their own.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Depends who's military you're talking about with regard to transporting ammo. Yes, most western militaries are highly motorized, much of the rest of the world is not.

Being a Jarhead we tended to rely on our boots not our vehicles for transport and almost everyone carried one of either MG, AT, or mortar ammo in addition to their own.

Correct..the assumption that the gun crew only carries one round each is not correct when the necessary game abstractions are applied. If you want to move your mortars in vehicles you can but we have to consider the crew as a standalone unit and all the equipment/ammo to operate a mortar or MG has to be considered as moved on foot UNLESS you put them in a vehicle.

When added together the weight a MG or mortar team has to move is roughly equal in game abstraction terms......equivalent mortars move slower in MBT than they do in WW2 but in MBT they carry more ammo..it's a trade off....a compromise..... and NO compromise will ever please everyone.

All of these "guidelines" were written nearly 2 decades ago ..and then they "evolved"....yes when all the math is done a HMG and it's ammo is marginally heavier ( but only marginally ) than a standard infantry mortar and all it's ammo ( NOT just one round per man!) but the HMG does move a bit faster in the game.......live with it......ASSUME it is a more difficult/ slower process to move a mortar and it's ammo than it would for an HMG.

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Weasel

When opening the unit and looking at the details it is listed as: 60mm DF mortar and indeed only fires direct, cannot be called in by a FOO. The DF stands for direct fire doesn't it? If there are two classes of direct fire (gun class vs crew class) only then they will have to be distinguished somehow.

Thanks for the explanation about carrying, I did know that already but very helpful to anyone else who may be following this thread.

There were a couple of issues that multiplied their impact.....a wrong weapon assigned to one set of units and the wrong unit assigned to one formation...simple enough on reading but a ridiculous amount of time was spent sorting it out.......but it is now sorted out