Advise on stats for Mini-Spike APGW

[scorpio_rocks]

Hiya folks,

I dont believe this weapon system is yet in game (or I missed it /designated as something else)
Was wondering what the collective thought would be the best way to represent / model the "mini Spike" Anti-Personnel Guided Weapon?
http://defense-update.com/photos/mini_spike.html

Do I make it a ATGM class weapon with only HE numbers? or a class 2 (Inf secondary weapon?

My thoughts on other stats:
Accuracy = 95 (same as the rest of the Spike "family")
Warhead size = 3 or 4?
HE Penetration = 2 or 3 (Kinetic)
HE Kill = around 15?
AP Pen & kill = 0
Min range = 1 (designed to be used "across a street")
Weapon Range = 26 (1300m range)

Thoughts?

[Mobhack]

If its an ATGM then you cannot move and fire. But that really probably suits it since it will take time to assemble?.

Best thing - make a first attempt, and test drive it on a range scenario. Tweak sill it seems OK to you. Don't make it an inf-AT or inf-atgm class, since that would put it in the a/t classes which it is not.

No idea what the "doctrine" for deployment of the thing would really be. maybe make a rifle section with the thing as a weapon?. Perhaps an S/F type, since it probably would only be issued to those.

Also - field test it against bunkers, as that's probably more like what it should be utilised against, not generic grunt-bashing. It is probably more of a manufacturer's solution looking for a problem, IMHO.

Also - test it with an AI force, and see if it does something unexpected - e.g. reaction fire on tanks... which it may well do as missiles are anti-tank weaponry!. (Probably best out of the AI's hands, so an X3 radio code item, and perhaps may work best as an inf-RCL class?)

[DRG]

Thinking try WC 2 for that. It's NOT an AT weapon so that's the only class that fits. Report back your findings and I'll get it into the game


Don

[scorpio_rocks]

Thanks for the responses!

OK - some results:

I tried the weapon with the above stats as:
1. a Class #2 secondary Inf weapon
2. a Class #13 ATGM
3. a Class #5 Light gun
4. a Class #3 Team weapon

I tried each of these 4 as:
1. slot 2 of a class #1 Infantry section
2. slot 1 of a class #2 Infantry AT
3. slot 1 of a class #206 Infantry ATGM
4. slot 1 of a class #208 Infantry RR
5. on a light vehicle as class #238 Lt MIFV
6. on a light vehicle as class #19 SP ATGM
7. on a light vehicle as class #39 SP Gun

I found the weapon seemed to work best as a ATGM (HE only) in the hands of none AT troops.
Set up like this I got the right graphic and sound FX, limited burst radius, etc that I feel the weapon should have.
I got what I thought seemed to feel right (again only my opinion) with the weapon set to ATGM (class #13) in the hands of a Inf RR team (#208).
It was woefully inadequate against decent bunkers, armoured vehicles etc, but reasonable against soft stuff and infantry. I guess what you end up with is a very accurate, very visable(when it fires), low ammo and rate of fire HMG.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I might piss off some people here but, nowhere in the previous ref provided and again below and the rest do they say the "mini spike" is deployed with the Israeli or any other export customers military. I would just advise caution here.
As of the Summer of 2012 as noted in ref. 2 it was still in development and I can't find any data to support it after mid-2012 except as noted (not mentioned) at the bottom section of this post from Rafael itself. It would appear this program died somewhere between the Summer of 2012 and now, sooner then later I would guess.

http://defense-update.com/features/2...html#minispike
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...urosatory-2012


From ref. 2 in 2012...
"Developed for the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), the missile will help fill the current gap in organically engaging targets, located at a distance of 1,000m to 1,200m at the platoon level.

The spokesman refused to provide further information on the status of the missile development, but noted that the 'full-scale development' was now beyond the critical design phase."

Also it isn't listed on Rafael's own website in their current index of weapons systems provided below...
http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/18....aspx?letter=S

Or by application search...
http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/34...Marketing.aspx
http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/343-en/Marketing.aspx

Also a search from the Rafael website using the term "mini spike missile" gave me five pages of results but none for the mini spike itself.

We've been down this road before, it was the USA Kinetic ATM mounted on a STRYKER that started the same way, got entered but never fully supported I believe by further documentation to show it was approved, made or deployed. End result the documentation was found that the program was killed (And the manufacture I believe went bankrupt.) and we deleted from the game - this about 2-3 years ago. Was in a specific Thread but might also be in the Patch or APC Thread as well, can't remember how we fixed it thread wise.

Regards,
Pat

[scorpio_rocks]

Hehe sorry perhaps I didn't look deep enough - most of the articles I saw do indeed originate in 2009/10 and 2012.

Although it seems they were still (trying at least) selling it in 2013: http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/rafael-promotes-mini-spike-missile.html.

It seens that a lot of the "real life" data is in actual fact from the Arma III computer game which features the weapon system under the pseudonym 'Titan'.

Thanks for the time you all spent - sorry if I wasted it

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Like I haven't done that to Don myself a couple, handful, alright a few times myself in various variations of this situation. As Suhiir once commented on a post of mine and I paraphrase, "...so he is human after all." I have, I do, I will continue to make them (Sorry Don!) and that's fine with me and anyone else out here. The upside for me is now I have enough confirmation to proceed with the MAGACH 5 NLOS MBT and APC as posted in the MBT Thread.

The lesson here is simply spelled out with my "favorite" country in dealing with these issues-India. I've been tracking the MMRCA Program since it started in 2007 (Jet/Planes Thread.) and now this after eight years...
http://www.airforce-technology.com/n...rcraft-4636182

RAFALE's are on my list.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

true but look how long the Tamuz was in service before that was public knowledge. I have it in the game but re-nationalized so it can be activated or deleted whenever we get solid info

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well this should answer the TAMUZ question. First it looks like a start a date in 2005/2006 for a less accurate and effective system at least from long range. A newer more current and accurate and would think lethal version in 2009 and 2011. I would think also, this missile which is the English translated SPIKE NLOS might explain what happened to the Mini-SPIKE as the timeline fits very nicely compared against the TAMMUZ (That was the APC I was referring to, TY). They are both precision strike weapons with either the APGW/or ATGW warhead using apparently UAV normally as the spotter. Both are also direct fire support and more so in the IDF decision to mount the TAMMUZ/SPIKE NLOS on the MAGACHE 5 (And GingerTanker is going to kill me for continuing to butcher that MBT's name!?!) which in that configuration might cause issues in how to class it as it still carries it's normal main armament plus the NLOS Launcher. For 2006 on TAMUZ recommend simply June of the year. For 2009 will have to research the two operations it was involved to get a better date. On SPIKE NLOS as described above still working on a reasonable date.
http://www.jpost.com/Video-Articles/...n-Lebanon-Gaza
http://archive.defensenews.com/artic...st-Syrian-Fire
http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-gro...syrian-border/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...431606,00.html
http://www.military.com/video/guided...1099584652001/

In ref. 2 notice in the picture the coloration difference in the optical heads of two of the missiles one in each launcher I've done enough of this in the past that I feel I can rule out the suns reflection, I suspect these to be the ATGW versions based on the fact they seem to be using these more in the APGW mode.
In refs. 3&4 wish I could get a hole in one like these missiles seem to. But more importantly in ref. 4 note the date in the top of the frame 25/06/07 + time of day, I read it as 25 June 2007.

So TAMMUZ (Per the articles and my spell check I ignored.) is real and can be made active and it would seem has been very accurate all along.

Is the game smart enough to differentiate between personnel and armor when carrying two different warheads on the same weapons platform? Is that the purpose of putting or separating the AP version and AT version in two different weapons slots maybe? These are the things I don't know about in the mechanics of the game.

Why do I feel slightly baited here?

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Before I cause an international incident or again GingerTanker beats me up, I shouldn't have used the term "translated into..." on my last post. TAMMUZ is Hebrew for the 4th month of the Jewish calendar or what is July.
http://www.aish.com/jewish-calendar/..._Calendar.html

It appears it's origins date back to the Sumerians and other early cultures to include early Greece.
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Hol...uz/tammuz.html

So SPIKE NLOS is what Rafael calls it for marketing to the rest of the world.

Sorry for my poor sentencing structure.

Regards,
Pat